Did previous white administration setup black failure?

[n***@gmail.com]

There's a theory that the collapse of eg. the municipal administrations
throughout South Africa, since power was handed to the black majority,
was set up by the previous white controllers.

Apparently the US changes many government officials each time a
different party gains control; whereas Britain has a continuous civil
service. How did these important differences evolve?

[Steve Hayes]

Post by n***@gmail.com
There's a theory that the collapse of eg. the municipal administrations
throughout South Africa, since power was handed to the black majority,
was set up by the previous white controllers.
Apparently the US changes many government officials each time a
different party gains control; whereas Britain has a continuous civil
service. How did these important differences evolve?

It was the white civil servants in the "homelands" who taught
corruption to the black civil servants, and many from the "homeland"
civil services were taken into the newly reunited South African civil
service, having learned their lessons all too well.

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by n***@gmail.com
There's a theory that the collapse of eg. the municipal administrations
throughout South Africa, since power was handed to the black majority,
was set up by the previous white controllers.

I've often wondered about that. I don't have any solid evidence to show
that it did happen, but I can see how it could.

Certainly the Nat government shut down Eskom's planning department in the
late 80s, and that would have had consequences later. That they did that
to spike ANC guns is less clear, and I think, in that particular case,
unlikely.

How efficient the civil service was back then is another matter, and many
folks have memories of a state where everything ran like clockwork and
everybody had unimpeachable ethics.

I'm not so sure, and the service delivery was concentrated on a minority
of the population anyway.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by n***@gmail.com
There's a theory that the collapse of eg. the municipal administrations
throughout South Africa, since power was handed to the black majority,
was set up by the previous white controllers.

I've often wondered about that. I don't have any solid evidence to show
that it did happen, but I can see how it could.
Certainly the Nat government shut down Eskom's planning department in the
late 80s, and that would have had consequences later. That they did that
to spike ANC guns is less clear, and I think, in that particular case,
unlikely.

They sometimes tried to do that by privatising stuff.

Municipal swimming baths is one example, and Model C schools another.

In the case of Eskom, however, the ANC followed the same principle --
they told Eskom not to build new generating capacity and waited for
private enterprise to step in and do it for them. Private enterprise
didn't, hence the present problems.

Post by m***@gmail.com
How efficient the civil service was back then is another matter, and many
folks have memories of a state where everything ran like clockwork and
everybody had unimpeachable ethics.

Those memories are because a censored press had limited ability to
report the corruption that was rife, and, as I said, was taught to
black civil servants in the former "homelands" by their white mentors.

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by n***@gmail.com
There's a theory that the collapse of eg. the municipal administrations
throughout South Africa, since power was handed to the black majority,
was set up by the previous white controllers.

I've often wondered about that. I don't have any solid evidence to show
that it did happen, but I can see how it could.
Certainly the Nat government shut down Eskom's planning department in the
late 80s, and that would have had consequences later. That they did that
to spike ANC guns is less clear, and I think, in that particular case,
unlikely.

They sometimes tried to do that by privatising stuff.
Municipal swimming baths is one example, and Model C schools another.

Yes. But was that to move the costs around or to make sure that when
the inevitable happened they couldn't be blamed?

There was a period during which the Nats were trying to square the circle.
I remember that in Johannesburg they didn't relax the Group Areas act but
they did turn a blind eye to contraventions in some areas - usually Prog
wards. This was spun as a sort of experiment, but there were problems
because the incoming non-white residents could not sign leases, could not
own property and had no real protection under law and so slum-lording was
going to happen.

Tony Leon protested about this in his ward, saying that what should happen
was that laws should be changed so that in that ward black people could
have proper legal guarantees and sign leases instead of just being easy
pickings for unscrupulous absentee landlords who would exploit the
situation. (A stand which was quickly spun by the Nats: "You see, Toy Leon
doesn't want them where he lives.")

The ramifications of that turning a blind eye were considerable. Leon had
seen what would happen.

But was it ineptitude, trying to have one's cake and eat it, or malice?

Post by Steve Hayes
In the case of Eskom, however, the ANC followed the same principle --
they told Eskom not to build new generating capacity and waited for
private enterprise to step in and do it for them. Private enterprise
didn't, hence the present problems.

Oh I'm not trying to let them off the hook. I understand that this is an
inherited problem, but it's not like they haven't had time to sort things
out.

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by m***@gmail.com
How efficient the civil service was back then is another matter, and many
folks have memories of a state where everything ran like clockwork and
everybody had unimpeachable ethics.

Those memories are because a censored press had limited ability to
report the corruption that was rife, and, as I said, was taught to
black civil servants in the former "homelands" by their white mentors.

I dunno. I remember it. I had a good friend working for Standard Bank in
the 80s when there were forex problems. He told me that nearly every time
a line of credit was negotiated Nat ministers always got in first and
took a large chunk of the forex. Clearly it wasn't by chance that they
always knew it was coming and could take advantage.

Was I the only person who had such a conversation with a bank manager?

I recall gleeful coverage of the Nat MP for Hillbrow getting caught with
his fingers in the cookie jar, and the Info scandal was a massive story
here.

And I remember these and other things and so do you. So what is wrong with
other people's recollections?

I'm amazed by white people my age saying that they had no idea that things
were so brutal under the Nats (did they think that black people just went
en masse to the government and said they'd rather not vote and those
homelands are much more what we'd like to have?). Yet how do I know about
it?

OK... there was a period in the 80s when the Nats imposed strict censorship
on the papers ( I remember the Weekly Mail hitting the stands with blocks
of it's front page blacked out), but either side of that there was
reportage and I don't buy the amnesia that seems to have afflicted large
numbers of people.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by Steve Hayes
Those memories are because a censored press had limited ability to
report the corruption that was rife, and, as I said, was taught to
black civil servants in the former "homelands" by their white mentors.

I dunno. I remember it. I had a good friend working for Standard Bank in
the 80s when there were forex problems. He told me that nearly every time
a line of credit was negotiated Nat ministers always got in first and
took a large chunk of the forex. Clearly it wasn't by chance that they
always knew it was coming and could take advantage.
Was I the only person who had such a conversation with a bank manager?
I recall gleeful coverage of the Nat MP for Hillbrow getting caught with
his fingers in the cookie jar, and the Info scandal was a massive story
here.
And I remember these and other things and so do you. So what is wrong with
other people's recollections?
I'm amazed by white people my age saying that they had no idea that things
were so brutal under the Nats (did they think that black people just went
en masse to the government and said they'd rather not vote and those
homelands are much more what we'd like to have?). Yet how do I know about
it?
OK... there was a period in the 80s when the Nats imposed strict censorship
on the papers ( I remember the Weekly Mail hitting the stands with blocks
of it's front page blacked out), but either side of that there was
reportage and I don't buy the amnesia that seems to have afflicted large
numbers of people.

Yes, the info scandal was big, and so got press coverage. But a lot of
people seemed to think it was exceptional.

In the late 1970s and early 1980s, I lived in Melmoth, where the white
population more than doubled with the number of civil servants coming
in to give the Zulus "self-rule". A friend of mine, in the Department
of Agricultural Engineering, said he could have retired in two years
if he had taken all the bribes he had been offered to accept this or
that tender for machinery and equipment. Tenderpreneurs were rife in
those days, but we didn't have the word to describe them, just as we
didn't have the word "ethnic cleansing", though it was taking place
all around us.

Another bloke I knew was adminstrator at a church hospital nearby. He
had come from the Transkei, where all the church hospitals had been
nationalised. And he said that he knew many of the white civil
servants, who had also been in the Transkei, and remarked that as they
had taught the black civil servants to be corrupt there, they were
teaching them to be corrupt here too.

These were black "own affairs" and the government would say that the
"white" press were guilty of "improper interference" if they tried to
report on them, and in any case, most of the journalists in mainstream
newspapers were city people, and only concerned with what was going on
in the city. Where they had "country corresondents", they either had
no idea of what was going on, or if they did, did not regard it as
"news" anyway. Their idea of news was who won the village golf
tournament.

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by Steve Hayes
Those memories are because a censored press had limited ability to
report the corruption that was rife, and, as I said, was taught to
black civil servants in the former "homelands" by their white mentors.

I dunno. I remember it. I had a good friend working for Standard Bank in
the 80s when there were forex problems. He told me that nearly every time
a line of credit was negotiated Nat ministers always got in first and
took a large chunk of the forex. Clearly it wasn't by chance that they
always knew it was coming and could take advantage.
Was I the only person who had such a conversation with a bank manager?
I recall gleeful coverage of the Nat MP for Hillbrow getting caught with
his fingers in the cookie jar, and the Info scandal was a massive story
here.
And I remember these and other things and so do you. So what is wrong with
other people's recollections?
I'm amazed by white people my age saying that they had no idea that things
were so brutal under the Nats (did they think that black people just went
en masse to the government and said they'd rather not vote and those
homelands are much more what we'd like to have?). Yet how do I know about
it?
OK... there was a period in the 80s when the Nats imposed strict censorship
on the papers ( I remember the Weekly Mail hitting the stands with blocks
of it's front page blacked out), but either side of that there was
reportage and I don't buy the amnesia that seems to have afflicted large
numbers of people.

Yes, the info scandal was big, and so got press coverage. But a lot of
people seemed to think it was exceptional.
In the late 1970s and early 1980s, I lived in Melmoth, where the white
population more than doubled with the number of civil servants coming
in to give the Zulus "self-rule". A friend of mine, in the Department
of Agricultural Engineering, said he could have retired in two years
if he had taken all the bribes he had been offered to accept this or
that tender for machinery and equipment. Tenderpreneurs were rife in
those days, but we didn't have the word to describe them, just as we
didn't have the word "ethnic cleansing", though it was taking place
all around us.
Another bloke I knew was adminstrator at a church hospital nearby. He
had come from the Transkei, where all the church hospitals had been
nationalised. And he said that he knew many of the white civil
servants, who had also been in the Transkei, and remarked that as they
had taught the black civil servants to be corrupt there, they were
teaching them to be corrupt here too.
These were black "own affairs" and the government would say that the
"white" press were guilty of "improper interference" if they tried to
report on them, and in any case, most of the journalists in mainstream
newspapers were city people, and only concerned with what was going on
in the city. Where they had "country corresondents", they either had
no idea of what was going on, or if they did, did not regard it as
"news" anyway. Their idea of news was who won the village golf
tournament.

Interesting stuff. Thanks. The under-reported rural areas as a safe
haven for bung taking.