Desmond Tutu once said...

[B J Foster]

"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".

Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?
http://www.100megspop2.com/crimebusters/FarmVictims.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article7078730.ece

Now underway in South Africa - already completed in Zimbabwe.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7479696.stm

And we're still waiting for Malcolm Fraser to have a word to his best
mate Mugabe about his CARE workers being beaten to a pulp:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/you-got-him-in-so-help-kick-him-out/story-e6frg7ef-1111116070981

He isn't normally so quiet about genocide and injustice.

"He suggested in the 2002 Walter Murdoch lecture that Australia was
deficient in respecting the 'rule of law', when Mugabe had just arrested
and manacled a retired High Court judge who had dared to find a Mugabe
crony guilty of contempt of court. In the same lecture he said: 'We
should not seek to live in a state of denial concerning our past'".

[B J Foster]

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/

Not bad - they somehow avoided giving the prize to Gaddafi. Maybe if he
resigns?

Plenty of other firsts though:
- Obama (2009) - first aspirational prize
- IPCC and Al Gore (2007) - first prize for economic disruption
- Yasser Arafat (1994) got pipped to the post for the first prize given
to a terrorist.

Famous Nobel peace prize winners mentioned this week:
http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/03/19/some-obama-milestones/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/368124.stm

Other prizes:
Mandela was also the first award winner of the 'Al Gaddafi International
Prize for Human Rights' (1989).

Whilst Gaddafi missed out on the Nobel Peace Prize he didn't miss being
awarded South Africa's highest honour - the 'Order of Good Hope' (1997).

No prizes for guessing who organised the bombing of Pan Am 103

[Steve Hayes]

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".
Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?

There is no "genocide" of white farmers.

That is a misuse of the term "genocide", though it's being so misused
nowadays that it will soon become quite meaningless.

[JNugent]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".
Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?

There is no "genocide" of white farmers.

Quite so. He meant some variant of "mass murder".

[Steve Hayes]

Post by JNugent

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".
Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?

There is no "genocide" of white farmers.

Quite so. He meant some variant of "mass murder".

Since there's no evidence of that either, it'sd equally delusional.

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by JNugent

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".
Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?

There is no "genocide" of white farmers.

Quite so. He meant some variant of "mass murder".

Since there's no evidence of that either, it'sd equally delusional.

Genocide Watch:
Over 1000 Boer Farmers In South Africa Have Been Murdered Since 1991

This Genocide Watch is to raise an alert concerning the number of Boer
farmers slain since the end of apartheid in South Africa. The threat of
destruction of a group must not be ignored because its numbers are small
or its members disfavoured because they have acted in discriminatory
ways in the past. A critical factor in this analysis is the total
remaining number of Boer farmers. The total number of ethno-European
farmers in South Africa has been estimated at approximately 40,000 to
45,000. The majority of ethno-European farmers are Boers. In world
context, this may seem to be a small number of people. But such
absolute numbers are biased against recognition of threats to the
survival of minorities. The smaller the minority the more severe this bias.
http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/SAfrica2002Over1000BoerFarmersInSouthAfricaHaveBeenMurderedSince1991.pdf

White farmers 'being wiped out'
Over 3,000 have been killed since 1994. Now the ANC is accused of
fanning the hate.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article7078730.ece


"Julius Malema, head of the African National Congress’s (ANC’s) youth
league, opened a public rally by singing Dubula Ibhunu, or Shoot the
Boer, an apartheid-era anthem, that was banned by the high court last week.
...
That same day a 46-year-old Afrikaner was shot through his bedroom
window as he slept at his farm near Potchefstroom. A few days later a
61-year-old was stabbed to death in his bed at a farm in Limpopo.

The resurrection of 'Dubula Ibhunu', defended by senior ANC officials as
little more then a sentimental old struggle song..."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article7078730.ece


Only 70 miles from a 2010 World Cup football stadium, a farmer's wife
and a boy aged 13 learn to defend themselves with lethal weapons. They
say thousands of white landowners have been killed by Zimbabwe-style
marauders; their black rulers accuse them of belligerence and right-wing
tendencies
Read more:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1192088/South-Africa-World-Cup-2010--shootings-started.html

"He’s going to shoot me! I trip as I run back to the bedroom. Peter
comes to the door but he has nothing in his hand, no pistol. I hear a
gun go off. I hear my mother-in-law screaming. I lock the door and
telephone my son. I tell him: “I think they shot Pa!”’

Two men are outside the bedroom window with a rifle. She loads the
pistol Peter keeps by the bed.

‘I take the gun and say, “Come on! I’ll shoot you!”’

Back in the hall she finds Peter dead, a trail of blood across the
kitchen floor. Her mother-in-law Gerda is bruised and beaten.

‘I can’t tell you how hopeless I felt,’ Bella says. ‘I will see it in
front of me for weeks, months, years.

Days after Peter is cremated, the attackers return. The survivors are
sleeping elsewhere by now, so the gang finds only the dogs in the house.
They torture the animals with boiling water before soaking them in
petrol and setting them on fire.

Read more:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1192088/South-Africa-World-Cup-2010--shootings-started.html


50 murders per day, official rate 80-100 = ten times the rate of the US

Julius Malema (ANC Youth League president), recently visited Zimbabwe to
discuss tactics:
"Zanu PF Youth League national secretary for administration Leslie Ncube
said Malema was visiting Zimbabwe to discuss and share ideas on 'youth
empowerment and revolutionary tactics'.
...
'We share the same revolutionary history and they (visiting delegates)
are coming to learn from our agrarian reform and indigenisation'.

'The ANC is about to expand its land reforms, and we will share advice
and discuss how resources should be equitably distributed to the youth
and also how they can benefit from natural resources such as mining',
Ncube said".
http://www.thezimbabwemail.com/index.php?news=4904

What the *fuck* do you think he means by 'INDIGENISATION' eh?

[Steve Hayes]

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by JNugent

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".
Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?

There is no "genocide" of white farmers.

Quite so. He meant some variant of "mass murder".

Since there's no evidence of that either, it'sd equally delusional.

Over 1000 Boer Farmers In South Africa Have Been Murdered Since 1991
This Genocide Watch is to raise an alert concerning the number of Boer
farmers slain since the end of apartheid in South Africa. The threat of
destruction of a group must not be ignored because its numbers are small
or its members disfavoured because they have acted in discriminatory
ways in the past. A critical factor in this analysis is the total

That seems to be a source of disinformation.

Boer farmers is a redundancy. Boer means farmer. And yes, lots of farmers (or
farmer farmers if you prefer) have been murdered. So have a lot of other
people, often armed robberies or attempted robberies.

but ARMED ROBBERY IS NOT GENOCIDE, even if the robbers commit murder while
they are robbing or attempting to rob people.. To call it genocide is an abuse
of language.

I'm not quite sure what this has to do with what Desmond Tutu is supposed to
have said, but I'm sure he's on record as having spoken against violent crime.

For example, this report:

Desmond Tutu has delivered a withering verdict on the state of South Africa as
the country prepares to host the continent's first football World Cup.

The archbishop emeritus, often described as South Africa's moral conscience,
condemned rampant crime and corruption and said the legacy of racial apartheid
was still being felt.

and he goes on to say:

"Many of us feel more unsafe than before," said Tutu, chairman of The Elders
group of world leaders. "We are prisoners in our homes. Look at what is
happening to farmers.

"But it is not only the farmers. You read something horrific almost every day.
We should ask ourselves: 'Hey, what is going on?'"

You can read the whole report here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/05/desmond-tutu-south-africa


\
\
\

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by JNugent

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".
Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?

There is no "genocide" of white farmers.

Quite so. He meant some variant of "mass murder".

Since there's no evidence of that either, it'sd equally delusional.

Over 1000 Boer Farmers In South Africa Have Been Murdered Since 1991
This Genocide Watch is to raise an alert concerning the number of Boer
farmers slain since the end of apartheid in South Africa. The threat of
destruction of a group must not be ignored because its numbers are small
or its members disfavoured because they have acted in discriminatory
ways in the past. A critical factor in this analysis is the total

That seems to be a source of disinformation.

Oops, you snipped the reference - so that no-one can see for themselves:
http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/SAfrica2002Over1000BoerFarmersInSouthAfricaHaveBeenMurderedSince1991.pdf

Did you mean to?

Post by Steve Hayes
Boer farmers is a redundancy. Boer means farmer. And yes, lots of farmers (or
farmer farmers if you prefer) have been murdered. So have a lot of other
people, often armed robberies or attempted robberies.

The term is *commonly* used to describe *white* Afrikaner farmers. You
can sanitise or pretend that it means something else, but there it is.
The redundancy makes clear that we are talking about *farmers*, as
opposed to (say) 'Boer oppressors' or the former 'Boer government'. But
you knew all that.

Post by Steve Hayes
but ARMED ROBBERY IS NOT GENOCIDE, even if the robbers commit murder while
they are robbing or attempting to rob people.. To call it genocide is an abuse
of language.

Maybe you should tell that to Genocide Watch - because they don't agree:
http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/SAfrica2002Over1000BoerFarmersInSouthAfricaHaveBeenMurderedSince1991.pdf

There are 3 main lines of evidence pointing to the fact that a genocide
is in progress:
1. The murder rate of *white* Afrikaner (aka 'Boer') farmers is 4 times
higher than SA generally, which is 80 times higher than (say) Tokyo.
This is not some statistical anomaly, it has been going on since 1994.
2. The farm murders are characterised by excessive brutality and savagery.
3. ANC leaders are dismissive of the facts, e.g.
http://youtu.be/-lYYZfztK9g in a classic 'denial' - a
signature of genocide.
4. The targeting of ET, a known fascist, is a too-clever attampt to
demonise farmers. As Genocide watch says:
(in the reference which *you* snipped in your own personal denial)
"The threat of destruction of a group must not be ignored because its
numbers are small or its members disfavoured because they have acted in
discriminatory ways in the past".

Post by Steve Hayes
I'm not quite sure what this has to do with what Desmond Tutu is supposed to
have said, but I'm sure he's on record as having spoken against violent crime.

If he is falsely characterising the genocide of Boer farmers merely as
'violent crime' then he is on the side of the oppressors - by his own rule.

Is he though - or are you misquoting him?

Post by Steve Hayes
Desmond Tutu has delivered a withering verdict on the state of South Africa as
the country prepares to host the continent's first football World Cup.
The archbishop emeritus, often described as South Africa's moral conscience,
condemned rampant crime and corruption and said the legacy of racial apartheid
was still being felt.
"Many of us feel more unsafe than before," said Tutu, chairman of The Elders
group of world leaders. "We are prisoners in our homes. Look at what is
happening to farmers.
"But it is not only the farmers. You read something horrific almost every day.
We should ask ourselves: 'Hey, what is going on?'"

He can answer his own question. What do you think happens when Malema
encourages followers to 'kill for Zuma'?

That is, the same Julius Malema who was singing 'Dubula Ibhunu' (kill
the Boers') defended by senior ANC officials as little more then a
'sentimental old struggle song'.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article7078730.ece

What does Tutu think Ncube meant by Malema coming to Zimbabwe to "learn
from our agrarian reform and indigenisation"?

What does Tutu think about the ANC's focused denial:
http://youtu.be/-lYYZfztK9g

Post by Steve Hayes
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/05/desmond-tutu-south-africa

I did. It is a smokescreen.

What did Tutu mean by "the big fish got away"? Shortly afterward,
Terreblanche was murdered. Terreblanche was a buffoon and an idiot -
never part of the apartheid era power structure and never a "big fish".

Targeting Terreblanche was a sophisticated attempt to demonise 'Boer
farmers' - the public perception is that Boer farmers are like ET,
fascist buffoons. Be honest with yourself, how many people will mourn ET?

No-one is fooled. Except Tutu?
According to the Democratic Alliance:
"Any argument by the ANC that this song is merely a preservation of
struggle literature rings hollow in the face of farming families who
have lost wives, mothers and grandmothers"

"(The) ANC’s continued association with the call to kill Boers could not
be justified".

At best, Tutu is a fool who wants to believe that the farm murders are
merely crime. But Tutu is no fool, so if we are kind we might think he
is merely in denial. If so, he has succumbed to the strategy of
murderers like Julius Malema who are bent on the genocide of the
'Boers', quaintly called "agrarian reform and indigenisation" by his
ZANU-PF murderous mates in Zimbabwe.

Tutu has never stood aside and been neutral in the face of oppression
before. Why now? Or does he only oppose injustice on Black people?

[Steve Hayes]

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes
Boer farmers is a redundancy. Boer means farmer. And yes, lots of farmers (or
farmer farmers if you prefer) have been murdered. So have a lot of other
people, often armed robberies or attempted robberies.

The term is *commonly* used to describe *white* Afrikaner farmers. You
can sanitise or pretend that it means something else, but there it is.
The redundancy makes clear that we are talking about *farmers*, as
opposed to (say) 'Boer oppressors' or the former 'Boer government'. But
you knew all that.

In that sense the term "boer" is obsolete and racist. Afrikaans-speaking South
Africans, whatever their occupation, refer to themselves as "Afrikaners".

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes
but ARMED ROBBERY IS NOT GENOCIDE, even if the robbers commit murder while
they are robbing or attempting to rob people.. To call it genocide is an abuse
of language.

As I said, they are clearly a sourse of disinformation and are misusing the
word.

Post by B J Foster
There are 3 main lines of evidence pointing to the fact that a genocide
1. The murder rate of *white* Afrikaner (aka 'Boer') farmers is 4 times
higher than SA generally, which is 80 times higher than (say) Tokyo.
This is not some statistical anomaly, it has been going on since 1994.
2. The farm murders are characterised by excessive brutality and savagery.
3. ANC leaders are dismissive of the facts, e.g.
http://youtu.be/-lYYZfztK9g in a classic 'denial' - a
signature of genocide.
4. The targeting of ET, a known fascist, is a too-clever attampt to
(in the reference which *you* snipped in your own personal denial)
"The threat of destruction of a group must not be ignored because its
numbers are small or its members disfavoured because they have acted in
discriminatory ways in the past".

Farmers (whatever language they speak) are targets of armed robbers because
they are seen as "soft" targets because they are usually relatively isolated
from their neighbours. That doesn't stop armed robbers in urban areas, but the
proportions are different. I don't buy the conspiracy theiries of this
"Genocide Watch" bunch, and if what you have posted is typical of the kind of
"information" they provide, then I wouldn't rely on them for information about
anything.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "targeting" of ET. Are you meaning in the
same way as Sarah Palin in the US "targeted" members of other political
parties?

http://methodius.blogspot.com/2011/01/kill-boer-kill-congresswoman.html

or to you mean in the same way that you are "targeting" Desmond Tutu?

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes
I'm not quite sure what this has to do with what Desmond Tutu is supposed to
have said, but I'm sure he's on record as having spoken against violent crime.

If he is falsely characterising the genocide of Boer farmers merely as
'violent crime' then he is on the side of the oppressors - by his own rule.
Is he though - or are you misquoting him?

Post by Steve Hayes
Desmond Tutu has delivered a withering verdict on the state of South Africa as
the country prepares to host the continent's first football World Cup.
The archbishop emeritus, often described as South Africa's moral conscience,
condemned rampant crime and corruption and said the legacy of racial apartheid
was still being felt.
"Many of us feel more unsafe than before," said Tutu, chairman of The Elders
group of world leaders. "We are prisoners in our homes. Look at what is
happening to farmers.
"But it is not only the farmers. You read something horrific almost every day.
We should ask ourselves: 'Hey, what is going on?'"

He can answer his own question. What do you think happens when Malema
encourages followers to 'kill for Zuma'?
That is, the same Julius Malema who was singing 'Dubula Ibhunu' (kill
the Boers') defended by senior ANC officials as little more then a
'sentimental old struggle song'.

Julius Malema, like ET, is a buffoon. I doubt that Desmond Tutu has any time
for him.

http://methodius.blogspot.com/2010/04/politics-is-getting-interesting-again.html

Post by B J Foster
Tutu has never stood aside and been neutral in the face of oppression
before. Why now? Or does he only oppose injustice on Black people?

Whatever his shortcomings, Tutu has always opposed injustice, no matter who
the perpetrators and who the victims are.

That doesn't change just because he fails (in your view) to support your
paranoid conspiracy theories.

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes
Boer farmers is a redundancy. Boer means farmer. And yes, lots of farmers (or

Post by Steve Hayes
farmer farmers if you prefer) have been murdered. So have a lot of other
people, often armed robberies or attempted robberies.

The term is*commonly* used to describe*white* Afrikaner farmers. You
can sanitise or pretend that it means something else, but there it is.
The redundancy makes clear that we are talking about*farmers*, as
opposed to (say) 'Boer oppressors' or the former 'Boer government'. But
you knew all that.

In that sense the term "boer" is obsolete and racist. Afrikaans-speaking South
Africans, whatever their occupation, refer to themselves as "Afrikaners".

No-one has any use for your political correctness, except maybe the
murderers.

*White* Afrikaner South Africans - 'White Afrikaners', if you prefer
that term, are being murdered. The murderers are choosing the victims on
racist grounds.

Pussy footing around the facts is merely a tactic - and you have
succumbed to it. Not dealing with the actual problem, and scoring cheap
debating points is playing into the hands of the murderers. That is what
you are doing.

And in fact, this is Tutu's Law of (let's call it) Passive Bystanders:
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".

Do you want to be an oppressor?

[Steve Hayes]

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes
Boer farmers is a redundancy. Boer means farmer. And yes, lots of farmers (or

Post by Steve Hayes
farmer farmers if you prefer) have been murdered. So have a lot of other
people, often armed robberies or attempted robberies.

The term is*commonly* used to describe*white* Afrikaner farmers. You
can sanitise or pretend that it means something else, but there it is.
The redundancy makes clear that we are talking about*farmers*, as
opposed to (say) 'Boer oppressors' or the former 'Boer government'. But
you knew all that.

In that sense the term "boer" is obsolete and racist. Afrikaans-speaking South
Africans, whatever their occupation, refer to themselves as "Afrikaners".

*White* Afrikaner South Africans - 'White Afrikaners', if you prefer
that term, are being murdered. The murderers are choosing the victims on
racist grounds.

Gow do you know that?

The muderers are more likely to be choosing the victims on the grounds of
having stuff they want and being able to get away with it.

Post by B J Foster
Pussy footing around the facts is merely a tactic - and you have
succumbed to it. Not dealing with the actual problem, and scoring cheap
debating points is playing into the hands of the murderers. That is what
you are doing.

Alleged facts.

Ansd you are pussyfooting around the actual problem, which is violent crime,
and trying to promote a racist ideology by claiming that only one group of
people are the victims, which is simply not true.

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".

And you seem to think it is OK to be a passive bystander in every case but one
-- where the victim belongs to your favoured language and occupational group.

You seem quite happy to oppress all the others.

[Etienne Marais]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes
Boer farmers is a redundancy. Boer means farmer. And yes, lots of farmers (or

 farmer farmers if you prefer) have been murdered. So have a lot of other
 people, often armed robberies or attempted robberies.

The term is*commonly*  used to describe*white*  Afrikaner farmers. You
can sanitise or pretend that it means something else, but there it is.
The redundancy makes clear that we are talking about*farmers*, as
opposed to (say) 'Boer oppressors' or the former 'Boer government'. But
you knew all that.

In that sense the term "boer" is obsolete and racist. Afrikaans-speaking South
Africans, whatever their occupation, refer to themselves as "Afrikaners".

*White* Afrikaner South Africans - 'White Afrikaners', if you prefer
that term, are being murdered. The murderers are choosing the victims on
racist grounds.

Gow do you know that?
The muderers are more likely to be choosing the victims on the grounds of
having stuff they want and being able to get away with it.

Wrong, often nothing, or only a cellphone, is stolen.

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes

*White* Afrikaner South Africans - 'White Afrikaners', if you prefer

Post by B J Foster
that term, are being murdered. The murderers are choosing the victims on
racist grounds.

Gow do you know that?
The muderers are more likely to be choosing the victims on the grounds of
having stuff they want and being able to get away with it.

Less than 48 hours before the murder:

"During a visit to Harare this month, Mr Malema congratulated Mugabe's
henchmen for seizing white-owned land and encouraged them to grab the
remaining property. He then suggested that South Africa should adopt
Mugabe's policies.

Accompanied by the singing of the Zulu freedom song Kill the Boer, he
said: 'In South Africa, we are just starting. Here in Zimbabwe, you are
already very far' -- a reference to Mugabe's disastrous program of land
seizures, which has left southern Africa's former bread basket unable to
feed itself.

Mr Zuma, who once described Mr Malema as a future leader of South
Africa, is believed to protect him because his six million young members
ensure that the ANC keeps its finger on the pulse of the townships".
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/jacob-zuma-moves-to-calm-racial-tensions-after-farm-murder-of-eugene-terreblanche/story-e6frg6so-1225852462093

[Steve Hayes]

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes

*White* Afrikaner South Africans - 'White Afrikaners', if you prefer

Post by B J Foster
that term, are being murdered. The murderers are choosing the victims on
racist grounds.

Gow do you know that?
The muderers are more likely to be choosing the victims on the grounds of
having stuff they want and being able to get away with it.

"During a visit to Harare this month, Mr Malema congratulated Mugabe's
henchmen for seizing white-owned land and encouraged them to grab the
remaining property. He then suggested that South Africa should adopt
Mugabe's policies.

So the "mass murder" you speak of took place within 48 hours of that?

When did it take place? Where did it take place? How many victims?

And what do Juju's rantings have to do with Bishop Desmond Tutu?

http://methodius.blogspot.com/2010/04/politics-is-getting-interesting-again.html

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes

*White* Afrikaner South Africans - 'White Afrikaners', if you prefer

Post by B J Foster
that term, are being murdered. The murderers are choosing the victims on
racist grounds.

Gow do you know that?
The muderers are more likely to be choosing the victims on the grounds of
having stuff they want and being able to get away with it.

"During a visit to Harare this month, Mr Malema congratulated Mugabe's
henchmen for seizing white-owned land and encouraged them to grab the
remaining property. He then suggested that South Africa should adopt
Mugabe's policies.

So the "mass murder" you speak of took place within 48 hours of that?

The murders (as you well know) have taken place since 1994.

Post by Steve Hayes
When did it take place? Where did it take place? How many victims?
And what do Juju's rantings have to do with Bishop Desmond Tutu?
http://methodius.blogspot.com/2010/04/politics-is-getting-interesting-again.html

You're getting boring.

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes
As I said, they are clearly a sourse of disinformation and are misusing the
word.

If that is the case, then what is their motive?

[Steve Hayes]

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes
As I said, they are clearly a sourse of disinformation and are misusing the
word.

If that is the case, then what is their motive?

You tell me.

I know nothing about them other than that they seem to be trying to propmote
white racism, to judge from the stuff you have posted.

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes
As I said, they are clearly a sourse of disinformation and are misusing the
word.

If that is the case, then what is their motive?

You tell me.
I know nothing about them other than that they seem to be trying to propmote
white racism, to judge from the stuff you have posted.

Don't be absurd.

Genocide watch monitors countries all over the world. They would be
totally ineffective if they were racist in any way.

On the contrary, they are *pointing* *out* racism in South Africa as the
*cause* of a potential genocide:
http://www.genocidewatch.org/aboutgenocide/countriesatrisk2010.html
http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/Countries_at_Risk_May_2010.doc

In South Africa, at stage 5, victim groups are identified and 'Boers'
and 'refugees' with the killer group identified as 'Black racists'.

The 'At Risk' score shot up the scale when a political leader (Malema)
made statements encouraging the murders and was not prosecuted and/or
otherwise curtailed (by Zuma).

Typical South African, you have your head in the sand - you pretend that
it is not happening because you wish it would go away. But it will not.
Not unless you *do* something about it.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes
As I said, they are clearly a sourse of disinformation and are misusing the
word.

If that is the case, then what is their motive?

You tell me.
I know nothing about them other than that they seem to be trying to propmote
white racism, to judge from the stuff you have posted.

Don't be absurd.
Genocide watch monitors countries all over the world. They would be
totally ineffective if they were racist in any way.

If they publish guff like that I wouldn't trust anything they said about
anything.

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes
As I said, they are clearly a sourse of disinformation and are misusing the
word.

If that is the case, then what is their motive?

You tell me.
I know nothing about them other than that they seem to be trying to propmote
white racism, to judge from the stuff you have posted.

Don't be absurd.
Genocide watch monitors countries all over the world. They would be
totally ineffective if they were racist in any way.

If they publish guff like that I wouldn't trust anything they said about
anything.

Why did you snip it, Chimurenga man?

Looks to me like you have succumbed completely. Can you live with yourself?

<unsnip>
On the contrary, they are *pointing* *out* racism in South Africa as the
*cause* of a potential genocide:
http://www.genocidewatch.org/aboutgenocide/countriesatrisk2010.html
http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/Countries_at_Risk_May_2010.doc
</unsnip>

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
There are 3 main lines of evidence pointing to the fact that a genocide

1. The murder rate of*white* Afrikaner (aka 'Boer') farmers is 4 times
higher than SA generally, which is 80 times higher than (say) Tokyo.
This is not some statistical anomaly, it has been going on since 1994.
2. The farm murders are characterised by excessive brutality and savagery.
3. ANC leaders are dismissive of the facts, e.g.
http://youtu.be/-lYYZfztK9g in a classic 'denial' - a
signature of genocide.
4. The targeting of ET, a known fascist, is a too-clever attampt to
(in the reference which*you* snipped in your own personal denial)
"The threat of destruction of a group must not be ignored because its
numbers are small or its members disfavoured because they have acted in
discriminatory ways in the past".

Farmers (whatever language they speak) are targets of armed robbers because
they are seen as "soft" targets because they are usually relatively isolated
from their neighbours.

How many Black farmers are attacked?

Why are the attacks characterised by atrocities and excessive brutality?

Why do ANC leaders deny that the murder rate of white farmers (300) is
*four* times higher than South Africa general (80-100), which in turn is
4-5 times higher than New York and *eighty* times Tokyo or Sydney?
http://youtu.be/-lYYZfztK9g

South Africa passed the first 6 stages of the genocide process with
hardly anyone noticing: classification, symbolization, dehumanization,
organization, polarization, and preparation, e.g. the last being the gun
grab & Malema's visit to Mugabe to learn his tactics.

The seventh stage is extermination, which is well under way. Nearly
4,000 farmers exterminated and the rate is accelerating..

South Africa has even entered the eighth stage, which is denial.
http://youtu.be/-lYYZfztK9g
Witness your own behaviour, not as a participant, but as a compliant
bystander unwilling to get involved.

"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor"

Post by Steve Hayes
That doesn't stop armed robbers in urban areas, but the
proportions are different. I don't buy the conspiracy theiries of this
"Genocide Watch" bunch, and if what you have posted is typical of the kind of
"information" they provide, then I wouldn't rely on them for information about
anything.

The information that *they* provide is only a part of the information
that I provided, most of which you ignored. e.g. Why the excessive
brutality?

Post by Steve Hayes
I'm not sure what you mean by the "targeting" of ET. Are you meaning in the
same way as Sarah Palin in the US "targeted" members of other political
parties?

This is about genocide in South Africa, stick to the topic.

My point is that ET was deliberately, cunningly targeted because most
people would probably not regard his passing as a loss.

Post by Steve Hayes
http://methodius.blogspot.com/2011/01/kill-boer-kill-congresswoman.html
or to you mean in the same way that you are "targeting" Desmond Tutu?

Tutu has chosen to remain neutral in the issue of the mass murder of
white Afrikaner farmers by *agreeing* with the oppressors'
disinformation that it is simply violent crime taking place.

I accept that you probably think he is a hero - and many people do - but
he appears to have forgotten his own wisdom:
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor"

In a submission to the UN, the ANC is directly implicated in the gencide
taking place:

"The ANC's 'very effective arsenal of genocidal weapons' included:
• Incitement by high-ranking government officials through speeches
• Inaction against crime
• Underutilisation of security forces
• Draconian gun laws
• Removal of the rural commando
• The threat of the nationalisation of land
• A proposed media tribunal
• Using former MK soldiers to take the fight to the white community
• The disuse of the police force
• affirmative action"
http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/South_Africa_10_09_15_Govt_says_genocide_claims_ludicrous_.doc

If the ANC government *know* that white farmers are vulnerable then why
are they disarming them?

Everyone knows that law-abiding whites turn in their weapons and then
become prey to the lawless - who do *not* surrender their guns.

Stupid or deliberate?

People like you, that stand by and watch it happen are, by Tutu's own
rule - as good as the oppressors themselves.

[Etienne Marais]

Post by B J Foster
People like you, that stand by and watch it happen are, by Tutu's own
rule - as good as the oppressors themselves.- Hide quoted text -

The underlying principle is resentment of the Afrikaner at the very
least,
but probably more a question of intense hatred of the Afrikaner, THAT
is the true reason why Anglo's ignore or underplay the genocide going
on.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor"

Post by Steve Hayes
That doesn't stop armed robbers in urban areas, but the
proportions are different. I don't buy the conspiracy theiries of this
"Genocide Watch" bunch, and if what you have posted is typical of the kind of
"information" they provide, then I wouldn't rely on them for information about
anything.

The information that *they* provide is only a part of the information
that I provided, most of which you ignored. e.g. Why the excessive
brutality?

Post by Steve Hayes
I'm not sure what you mean by the "targeting" of ET. Are you meaning in the
same way as Sarah Palin in the US "targeted" members of other political
parties?

This is about genocide in South Africa, stick to the topic.

I'm trying to disover what you mean by "targeted".

Post by B J Foster
My point is that ET was deliberately, cunningly targeted because most
people would probably not regard his passing as a loss.

And you know that how?

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes
http://methodius.blogspot.com/2011/01/kill-boer-kill-congresswoman.html
or to you mean in the same way that you are "targeting" Desmond Tutu?

Tutu has chosen to remain neutral in the issue of the mass murder of
white Afrikaner farmers by *agreeing* with the oppressors'
disinformation that it is simply violent crime taking place.

That's just a lie, well, several lies in fact.

1. Tutu has not chosen to "remain neutal"
2. There have been no "mass murders" (just as there is no genocide"

Isn't violent crime bad enough?

Or is it "simply" violent crime when the victims are people other than your
favoured language and occupational group?

Post by B J Foster
I accept that you probably think he is a hero - and many people do - but
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor"
In a submission to the UN, the ANC is directly implicated in the gencide
• Incitement by high-ranking government officials through speeches
• Inaction against crime
• Underutilisation of security forces
• Draconian gun laws
• Removal of the rural commando
• The threat of the nationalisation of land
• A proposed media tribunal
• Using former MK soldiers to take the fight to the white community
• The disuse of the police force
• affirmative action"
http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/South_Africa_10_09_15_Govt_says_genocide_claims_ludicrous_.doc
If the ANC government *know* that white farmers are vulnerable then why
are they disarming them?
Everyone knows that law-abiding whites turn in their weapons and then
become prey to the lawless - who do *not* surrender their guns.
Stupid or deliberate?
People like you, that stand by and watch it happen are, by Tutu's own
rule - as good as the oppressors themselves.

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
Tutu has chosen to remain neutral in the issue of the mass murder of

white Afrikaner farmers by*agreeing* with the oppressors'
disinformation that it is simply violent crime taking place.

That's just a lie, well, several lies in fact.
1. Tutu has not chosen to "remain neutal"

Now we're getting somewhere.

As a matter of fact, Tutu has chosen to *agree* that the murders are
'merely' crime.

At best, this amounts to being a bystander in an act of oppression. If
he is not merely a bystander, then he would be complicit in the ANC
tactic of denial (stage 8 of the genocide process) by painting it as
'merely' crime. Do you think Tutu would be complicit? Don't be absurd.

Post by Steve Hayes
2. There have been no "mass murders" (just as there is no genocide"

Whether or not there is a genocide is determined by clear signs and
evidence by people who have seen it all before.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article7078730.ece

Post by Steve Hayes
Isn't violent crime bad enough?
Or is it "simply" violent crime when the victims are people other than your
favoured language and occupational group?

I suggest that you familiarise yourself with these stages and pay more
attention to what is happening around you:
http://www.genocidewatch.org/aboutgenocide/8stagesofgenocide.html

Genocide watch also defines 12 forms of denial.
http://www.genocidewatch.org/aboutgenocide/12waystodenygenocide.html

How many have you personally succumbed to?

1. Question and minimize the statistics.
e.g. ANC Official:
http://youtu.be/-lYYZfztK9g

2. Attack the motivations of the truth-tellers.
e.g. Yourself painting the victims as a "favoured language and
occupational group"

3. Claim that the deaths were inadvertent
e.g. "We would like to reaffirm our position of fighting crime wherever
it takes place and regardless of who it affects" (ANC spokesperson
Jackson Mthembu)

"In the recent past, the ANC government has demonstrated *swiftness* in
fighting crime, resulting in the reduction in farm murders".

Comment:
South Africa has the highest murder rate in the world, and the *farm*
murder rate is *four* *times* higher.

4. Emphasize the strangeness of the victims.
"Convicted attackers, when questioned about this high level of cruelty
and violence, admitted that they had been this violent because they
hated their Afrikaner victims and saw them as 'dogs' rather than people;
and that they killed and tortured and raped for this reason".

5. Rationalize the deaths as the result of tribal conflict.

6. Blame 'out of control' forces for committing the killings:
e.g. The ANC painting the murders as 'merely' crime.

e.g. When an enquiry found that "farm attacks are being carried out with
considerably more violence than routine robberies elsewhere", Charles
Nqakula, South Africa's safety and security minister promptly refused to
release the report.

7. Avoid antagonizing the genocidists,...
e.g. The ANC Secretary General, Gwede Mantashe justifying Malema's conduct:
"You must interpret what is in the songs and then you must express views
on it… but when you interpret the song and you vulgarise the
interpretation, as a journalist, you are actually inciting conflict.
It’s an old struggle song, anybody who relegates it into hate speech
today, to me, I will regard that as a serious attempt to erase our
history…. If you try to erase the history through courts, that would be
unfortunate to the country".

Comment: This man is insane - he is claiming that the *literal*
interpretation of the song, by *journalists* is 'inciting conflict'

8. Justify denial in favor of current economic interests.
It is hard to see how the ANC's focused failure to defend a productive
and vulnerable group can be 'justified' however in Zimbabwe, Malema said
this to a ZANU-PF rally:
"We hear you are going straight for the mines, that is what we are going
to do in South Africa. They have exploited our minerals for a very long
time. We want the mines, now it’s our turn"

9. Claim that the victims are receiving good treatment,...

10. Claim that what is going on doesn’t fit the definition of genocide.
e.g. Steve Hayes.

11. Blame the victims.

12. Say that peace and reconciliation are more important that blaming
people for genocide

Twelve out of twelve for the ANC in the 8th and final stage of genocide.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
Tutu has chosen to remain neutral in the issue of the mass murder of

white Afrikaner farmers by*agreeing* with the oppressors'
disinformation that it is simply violent crime taking place.

That's just a lie, well, several lies in fact.
1. Tutu has not chosen to "remain neutal"

Now we're getting somewhere.
As a matter of fact, Tutu has chosen to *agree* that the murders are
'merely' crime.
At best, this amounts to being a bystander in an act of oppression. If
he is not merely a bystander, then he would be complicit in the ANC
tactic of denial (stage 8 of the genocide process) by painting it as
'merely' crime. Do you think Tutu would be complicit? Don't be absurd.

To be neutral, Tutu would have to avoid choosing sides between criminals and
victimes. As I have pointed out before, he clearly places himsel on the side
of the victims:

"Many of us feel more unsafe than before," said Tutu, chairman of The Elders
group of world leaders. "We are prisoners in our homes. Look at what is
happening to farmers.

"But it is not only the farmers. You read something horrific almost every day.
We should ask ourselves: 'Hey, what is going on?'"

So when you try to portray him as "neutral" you are lying and slandering him.

Post by B J Foster
2. Attack the motivations of the truth-tellers.
e.g. Yourself painting the victims as a "favoured language and
occupational group"

I have no idea what your motivations are, but I will attack the lies of the
liars, such as your claim that Desmond Tutu is "neutral" when he clearly
isn't.

And in this whole discussion you have mentioned crime only as it affects one
language and occupational group, and have ignored all other victims of violent
crime.

<irrelevant stuff snipped>

Post by B J Foster
Twelve out of twelve for the ANC in the 8th and final stage of genocide.

Which says nothing about your claim that Desmond Tutu is "neutral".

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
Tutu has chosen to remain neutral in the issue of the mass murder of

white Afrikaner farmers by*agreeing* with the oppressors'
disinformation that it is simply violent crime taking place.

That's just a lie, well, several lies in fact.
1. Tutu has not chosen to "remain neutal"

Now we're getting somewhere.
As a matter of fact, Tutu has chosen to *agree* that the murders are
'merely' crime.
At best, this amounts to being a bystander in an act of oppression. If
he is not merely a bystander, then he would be complicit in the ANC
tactic of denial (stage 8 of the genocide process) by painting it as
'merely' crime. Do you think Tutu would be complicit? Don't be absurd.

To be neutral, Tutu would have to avoid choosing sides between criminals and
victimes. As I have pointed out before, he clearly places himsel on the side

Only if you're dense. The murderers are painting the whole thing as
'crime'. If you agree with them, you are a (dense) victim of their
propaganda.

You have to be thick to listen to Malema, *see* the consequences, *see*
the studied indifference of the ANC and remain 'neutral'. Dense or
complicit.

Post by Steve Hayes
"Many of us feel more unsafe than before," said Tutu, chairman of The Elders
group of world leaders. "We are prisoners in our homes. Look at what is
happening to farmers.
"But it is not only the farmers. You read something horrific almost every day.
We should ask ourselves: 'Hey, what is going on?'"

And, duh, what is the answer?

Post by Steve Hayes
So when you try to portray him as "neutral" you are lying and slandering him.

Tutu makes his own choices.

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
2. Attack the motivations of the truth-tellers.
e.g. Yourself painting the victims as a "favoured language and
occupational group"

I have no idea what your motivations are, but I will attack the lies of the
liars, such as your claim that Desmond Tutu is "neutral" when he clearly
isn't.

Neutral would be indifferent. Neutral is what the ANC is. Tutu clearly
agrees with the ANC's lie that crime (not genocide) is taking place.
What do you call that? Taking a stand? I don't think so.

Post by Steve Hayes
And in this whole discussion you have mentioned crime only as it affects one
language and occupational group, and have ignored all other victims of violent
crime.

You ignored the differences: excessive brutality and atrocities, numbers

Post by Steve Hayes
<irrelevant stuff snipped>

Post by B J Foster
Twelve out of twelve for the ANC in the 8th and final stage of genocide.

Which says nothing about your claim that Desmond Tutu is "neutral".

[Steve Hayes]

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes
To be neutral, Tutu would have to avoid choosing sides between criminals and
victimes. As I have pointed out before, he clearly places himsel on the side

Only if you're dense. The murderers are painting the whole thing as
'crime'. If you agree with them, you are a (dense) victim of their
propaganda.

If that is what the murderers are doing (all of them? those who have been
caught and convicted and those who haven't been caught?) they should be let
off on grounds of insanity.

Post by B J Foster
You have to be thick to listen to Malema,

At least we agree on something.

<The rest of your mindless ranting deleted. I don't have time to read it>

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes
To be neutral, Tutu would have to avoid choosing sides between criminals and
victimes. As I have pointed out before, he clearly places himsel on the side

Only if you're dense. The murderers are painting the whole thing as
'crime'. If you agree with them, you are a (dense) victim of their
propaganda.

If that is what the murderers are doing (all of them? those who have been
caught and convicted and those who haven't been caught?) they should be let
off on grounds of insanity.

You are dense. The 'criminals' is this plot are low-life individuals
attacking easy targets - *encouraged* by one political leader (Malema)
and with the ANC leaders also complicit by turning a blind eye. Whilst
probably no-one in the ANC can be prosecuted for inaction, the strategy
is obvious - let it happen and one day there will be no more Boere. This
is obvious to anyone with average intelligence.

Tutu's rule ("If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've
chosen the side of the oppressor") says that you've chosen inaction, so
*you* have chosen the side of the oppressor.

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
You have to be thick to listen to Malema,

At least we agree on something.
<The rest of your mindless ranting deleted. I don't have time to read it>

Inaction noted => Oppressor.

[Etienne Marais]

Post by Steve Hayes
If that is what the murderers are doing (all of them? those who have been
caught and convicted and those who haven't been caught?) they should be let
off on grounds of insanity.

The government has also stated that the murders are
i) Not politically motivated
ii) Not racially motivated

They are lying.

[Steve Hayes]

Life sentence for FS farm murders
2010-09-16 07:09
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Bloemfontein - An Algerian man was sentenced to life imprisonment by the Parys
Circuit Court on Wednesday for the murder of a Free State couple who lived on
a farm near Vierfontein.

Martin Marzouk Berkouk, 27, killed Hendrik Visagie, 54, and his wife Sophia,
56, on the farm Wiltevrede in December 2009, Free State Hawks spokesperson
Sergeant Mmako Mophiring said.

Berkouk was arrested after he pulled into a filling station in Potchefstroom
on December 15, 2009 in the Visagies' maroon BMW. The petrol attendant noticed
his clothes were bloodstained, and that blood was dripping from the car's
boot.

The police were called and Berkouk was arrested at Foucheville.

The couple's identification books and jewellery were among the items found in
his possession.

With the help of an aircraft, police found Visagie's body in a field at
Orkney. His wife's body was found along the N12 to Klerksdorp the same day.
Visagie was a miner who rented a house on the farm,

Berkouk was further sentenced to 15 years imprisonment for house breaking and
four months for unlawfully possessing ammunition.

- SAPA

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Life-sentence-for-FS-farm-murders-20100915

[Steve Hayes]

Jail for SA farmer over 'baboon' murder of Zim man

By Staff Reporter

Last updated: 11/12/2009 16:59:03

A WHITE South African farmer who shot dead a Zimbabwean worker he claimed to
have mistaken for a baboon was jailed for 20 years on Thursday.

SABC news reported that Limpopo farmer Jewell Crossberg had been found guilty
of murdering Jealous Dube.

He was also found guilty of attempting to murder four other farm workers,
adding four five-year terms in prison to his sentence.

The sentences are to run concurrently.

Judge Ronnie Boshielo based his judgment - which was handed down in the
Pretoria High Court, sitting in Polokwane - on the fact that Crossberg did not
show any remorse.

He shot Dube and did not check what had happened, even when police came to the
scene, said the judge.

Crossberg's defence argued that he did show remorse as he paid Dube's funeral
costs.

The court heard that Crossberg shot and killed Dube on a farm in Musina in
2004 and shot at four other employees after he had accused them of being lazy.

Boshielo dismissed Crossberg's claim that he fired shots to scare off a troop
of baboons terrorising his farm.

Jan Tsiani, the COSATU secretary in Limpopo, says the sentence will help serve
as a deterrent: "We are pleased by the sentence. This sentence sends a clear
message to those employees who continue to kill their employees on the farms.

"There was a similar incident in Thabazimbi where a person was killed and the
farmer said he thought it was a dog. This is unacceptable."

http://www.newzimbabwe.com/pages/asylumsa37.16227.html

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by JNugent

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".
Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?

There is no "genocide" of white farmers.

Quite so. He meant some variant of "mass murder".

Since there's no evidence of that either, it'sd equally delusional.

Hope you have enough bandwidth, moron!

http://afrikaner-genocide-achives.blogspot.com/2010/07/farm-murder-death-list-1994-july-14_15.html

[Dug]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 05:51:53 +1100, B J Foster

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".
Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?

There is no "genocide" of white farmers.
That is a misuse of the term "genocide", though it's being so misused
nowadays that it will soon become quite meaningless.

How about ethnic cleansing? Does that sound better?

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".
Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?

There is no "genocide" of white farmers.
That is a misuse of the term "genocide", though it's being so misused
nowadays that it will soon become quite meaningless.

What 'neutral' term would you suggest be used?

[Steve Hayes]

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".
Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?

There is no "genocide" of white farmers.
That is a misuse of the term "genocide", though it's being so misused
nowadays that it will soon become quite meaningless.

What 'neutral' term would you suggest be used?

Why do you need a neutral term for a non-existent phenomenon?

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".
Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?

There is no "genocide" of white farmers.
That is a misuse of the term "genocide", though it's being so misused
nowadays that it will soon become quite meaningless.

What 'neutral' term would you suggest be used?

Why do you need a neutral term for a non-existent phenomenon?

Read Tutu's words carefully, idiot.

http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/SAfrica2002Over1000BoerFarmersInSouthAfricaHaveBeenMurderedSince1991.pdf

[Steve Hayes]

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".
Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?

There is no "genocide" of white farmers.
That is a misuse of the term "genocide", though it's being so misused
nowadays that it will soon become quite meaningless.

What 'neutral' term would you suggest be used?

Why do you need a neutral term for a non-existent phenomenon?

Read Tutu's words carefully, idiot.

Yes, and you read them too:

"Many of us feel more unsafe than before," said Tutu, chairman of The Elders
group of world leaders. "We are prisoners in our homes. Look at what is
happening to farmers.

"But it is not only the farmers. You read something horrific almost every day.
We should ask ourselves: 'Hey, what is going on?'"

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".
Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?

There is no "genocide" of white farmers.
That is a misuse of the term "genocide", though it's being so misused
nowadays that it will soon become quite meaningless.

What 'neutral' term would you suggest be used?

Why do you need a neutral term for a non-existent phenomenon?

Read Tutu's words carefully, idiot.

"Many of us feel more unsafe than before," said Tutu, chairman of The Elders
group of world leaders. "We are prisoners in our homes. Look at what is
happening to farmers.
"But it is not only the farmers. You read something horrific almost every day.
We should ask ourselves: 'Hey, what is going on?'"

Okay, so we have a situation of injustice and we don't want to remain
neutral (or we'd be choosing the side of the oppressor), so what's the
answer?

[Steve Hayes]

Post by B J Foster
Okay, so we have a situation of injustice and we don't want to remain
neutral (or we'd be choosing the side of the oppressor), so what's the
answer?

Catch violent criminals and put them behind bars.

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
Okay, so we have a situation of injustice and we don't want to remain
neutral (or we'd be choosing the side of the oppressor), so what's the
answer?

Catch violent criminals and put them behind bars.

Do you need his address? He lives in Sandton.
http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/South_Africa_10_06_08_Malema_may_face_Hague_genocide_charge.doc

[Eunometic]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".
Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?

There is no "genocide" of white farmers.

Baloney,

The term gneocide fits exactly What is happening.

Icidently the White's were in Sth Africa ahead of the Bantu who
immigrated and became a majority. The native San are, as before,
excluded.

Whites are more native than the majority of Blacks.

Post by Steve Hayes
That is a misuse of the term "genocide", though it's  being so misused
nowadays that it will soon become quite meaningless.

That's totally incorrect:

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2011/02/the-white-genocide-evidence-project/

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts
committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national,
ethnic, racial, or religious group as such:


(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated
to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

Raphael Lemkin, who originated the term genocide, defined it as
follows:

“Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean destruction of
a nation… It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of
different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations
of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the
groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the
disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture,
language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of
national groups, and the destruction of the personal security,
liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals
belonging to such groups. Genocide is directed against the national
group as an entity, and the actions involved are directed against
individuals, not in their individual capacity but as members of a
national group.”

This is happening in Sth Africa.

Retards like Fraser created a situation where it would happen.

The murder rate in post Apartheid Sth Africa is now 20 times the
murder rate under White rule.

The 500 bed hospitals built for the Blacks now have brocken windows
and the x-ray machines have a low rate of serice or are in disrepair.

Post by Steve Hayes
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog:http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Eunometic

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".
Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?

There is no "genocide" of white farmers.

Baloney,
The term gneocide fits exactly What is happening.

Bullshit.

It isn't happening.

Post by Eunometic
Icidently the White's were in Sth Africa ahead of the Bantu who
immigrated and became a majority. The native San are, as before,
excluded.

Absolute nonsense.

Post by Eunometic
Whites are more native than the majority of Blacks.

More nonsense.

[Andy]

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".
Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?http://www.100megspop2.com/crimebusters/FarmVictims.htmlhttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article7078730.ece
Now underway in South Africa - already completed in Zimbabwe.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7479696.stm
And we're still waiting for Malcolm Fraser to have a word to his best
mate Mugabe about his CARE workers being beaten to a pulp:http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/you-got-him-in-so-help-k...
He isn't normally so quiet about genocide and injustice.
"He suggested in the 2002 Walter Murdoch lecture that Australia was
deficient in respecting the 'rule of law', when Mugabe had just arrested
and manacled a retired High Court judge who had dared to find a Mugabe
crony guilty of contempt of court. In the same lecture he said: 'We
should not seek to live in a state of denial concerning our past'".

There would be a better way of land redistribution (after all the
land concerned was stolen from the original inhabitants) that would
be to float the farms as companies, with the farmer keeping a 50%
stake in the business, and the rest of the shares given to the workers

[Eunometic]

There would be a better way of land redistribution  

Dear Andy, the Politically Correct, left wing half Jewish, half Black,
slightly mentally slow, White hater.

The Bantu, the majority of Blacks, are not native to most of Sth
Africa. They immigrated well after Whites had settled. They came to
take advantage of the economy White settlers had created. Before then
It was too cold for them. The small numbers of San are aboriginal but
are as before marginalised.

[Andy]

Post by Eunometic

There would be a better way of land redistribution  

Dear Andy, the Politically Correct, left wing half Jewish, half Black,
slightly mentally slow, White hater.
The Bantu, the majority of Blacks, are not native to most of Sth
Africa.  They immigrated well after Whites had settled.  They came to
take advantage of the economy White settlers had created.  Before then
It was too cold for them.  The small numbers of San are aboriginal but
are as before marginalised.

The "coloureds" were the descendants of the original Europeans in
South Africa. The pig government wouldn't even give them the same
rights as other Europeans.

I don't support the actions of the Zimbabwean authorities- at the end
of the day those accustomed to menial work are going to have problems
with management roles, which is what happened with farms there. And
the white farmers were born there too, so are as deserving of
Zimbabwean citizens rights as the blacks. But local people are going
to have a problem with "alien" populations owning the largest tracts
of the best land. What I was proposing was for the white farmers to
keep control of their own farms whilst the labouring population could
have a share in the direction and profits- a win win situation.

[Eunometic]

Post by Andy

Post by Eunometic

There would be a better way of land redistribution  

Dear Andy, the Politically Correct, left wing half Jewish, half Black,
slightly mentally slow, White hater.
The Bantu, the majority of Blacks, are not native to most of Sth
Africa.  They immigrated well after Whites had settled.  They came to
take advantage of the economy White settlers had created.  Before then
It was too cold for them.  The small numbers of San are aboriginal but
are as before marginalised.

The "coloureds" were the descendants of the original Europeans in
South Africa. The pig government wouldn't even give them the same
rights as other Europeans.
I don't support the actions of the Zimbabwean authorities-

Yes you do.

In every way you justify and help cultivate black resentment, heap
blame upon Whites to the point that Whites can be non other than
hated, hunted and killed. Then of course you say murder is wrong.
Typical.

Post by Andy
at the end
of the day those accustomed to menial work are going to have problems
with management roles, which is what happened with farms there.

The lower than average IQ of the majority of blacks is well known.
The genetics is not going to improve. That's the reality, Work with
it.
Your not going to find too many bright sparks.

Post by Andy
the white farmers were born there too, so are as deserving of
Zimbabwean citizens rights as the blacks.  

Faux

[B J Foster]

Post by Andy
What I was proposing was for the white farmers to
keep control of their own farms whilst the labouring population could
have a share in the direction and profits- a win win situation.

Ludicrous. To the extent that anyone is forced to hand over "a share in
the direction and profits", they lose ownership. Where did you learn
this double-speak, Patrice Lumumba university?

In any case, most of the farmers have fled or have been murdered. Who
the fuck do you propose will "keep control"?

The ANC's inaction and turning a blind eye to the farm murders puts them
in the same category as Mugabe. Hey, why don't they offer Mugabe the
'Good Hope' prize, like they did to Gaddafi?

[Andy]

Post by B J Foster

Post by Andy
What I was proposing was for the white farmers to
keep control of their own farms whilst the labouring population could
have a share in the direction and profits- a win win situation.

Ludicrous. To the extent that anyone is forced to hand over "a share in
the direction and profits", they lose ownership. Where did you learn
this double-speak, Patrice Lumumba university?
In any case, most of the farmers have fled or have been murdered. Who
the fuck do you propose will "keep control"?
The ANC's inaction and turning a blind eye to the farm murders puts them
in the same category as Mugabe. Hey, why don't they offer Mugabe the
'Good Hope' prize, like they did to Gaddafi?

I don't see the problem, the white farmer would remain chairman and
majority shareholder of a private limited company , the black
labourers as shareholders would have a vested interest in the
continuation of the business, and those with the talent play a part in
the management.

[Eunometic]

Post by B J Foster

Post by Andy
What I was proposing was for the white farmers to
keep control of their own farms whilst the labouring population could
have a share in the direction and profits- a win win situation.

Ludicrous. To the extent that anyone is forced to hand over "a share in
the direction and profits", they lose ownership. Where did you learn
this double-speak, Patrice Lumumba university?
In any case, most of the farmers have fled or have been murdered. Who
the fuck do you propose will "keep control"?
The ANC's inaction and turning a blind eye to the farm murders puts them
in the same category as Mugabe. Hey, why don't they offer Mugabe the
'Good Hope' prize, like they did to Gaddafi?

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2009/12/deconstruction-i-know-how-to-do-it-too/

Not long ago I received a rare critical email reacting to an article
of mine published by Vdare.com back in June which dealt with the issue
of ancestral birthrights. I had protested in the article that, as the
British Empire retreated from its former colonies and became simply
the United Kingdom, it forgot about its former subjects and left them
stranded in jurisdictions controlled by hostile non-European
majorities. As a result, the descendants of former subjects have
nowadays to negotiate a tortuous and nonsensical bureaucratic maze in
order to bring their citizenship into harmony with their heritage,
while those without any blood-ties to the United Kingdom or Europe,
can obtain citizenship here without half the trouble.

Note of course any Jew has a 'rgith of return' to Israel. In reality
Whites in Africa need a right of return to Europe and the UK or other
majority White countries.

This is excatly What Andy, the supposed mullato/Jew hates since those
Sth Africans might be "racist" (who knows what he really is, he makes
all sorts of claims)

[Saracene]

Post by Andy

Post by Eunometic

There would be a better way of land redistribution  

Dear Andy, the Politically Correct, left wing half Jewish, half Black,
slightly mentally slow, White hater.
The Bantu, the majority of Blacks, are not native to most of Sth
Africa.  They immigrated well after Whites had settled.  They came to
take advantage of the economy White settlers had created.  Before then
It was too cold for them.  The small numbers of San are aboriginal but
are as before marginalised.

The "coloureds" were the descendants of the original Europeans in
South Africa. The pig government wouldn't even give them the same
rights as other Europeans.
I don't support the actions of the Zimbabwean authorities- at the end
of the day those accustomed to menial work are going to have problems
with management roles, which is what happened with farms there. And
the white farmers were born there too, so are as deserving of
Zimbabwean citizens rights as the blacks.  But local people are going
to have a problem with "alien" populations owning the largest tracts
of the best land. What I was proposing was for the white farmers to
keep control of their own farms whilst the labouring population could
have a share in the direction and profits- a win win situation.

This stupid cow bears some of the responsibility:-



"5 November 1997
From the Secretary of State

Hon Kumbirai Kangai MP
Minister of Agriculture and Land

Dear Minister

George Foulkes has reported to me on the meeting which you and Hon
John Nkomo had with Tony Lloyd and him during your recent visit. I
know that President Mugabe also discussed the land issue with the
Prime Minister briefly during their meeting. It may be helpful if I
record where matters now rest on the issue.

At the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting, Tony Blair said that
he looked forward to developing a new basis for relations with
Commonwealth countries founded upon our government's policies, not on
the past.

We will set out our agenda for international development in a White
Paper to be published this week. The central thrust of this will be
the development of partnerships with developing countries which are
committed to eradicate poverty, and have their own proposals for
achieving that which we and other donors can support.

I very much hope that we will be able to develop such a relationship
with Zimbabwe. I understand that you aim shortly to publish your own
policies on economic management and poverty reduction. I hope that we
can discuss them with you and identify areas where we are best able to
help. I mentioned this in my letter on 31 August to Hon Herbert
Murarwa.

I should make it clear that we do not accept that Britain has a
special responsibility to meet the costs of land purchase in Zimbabwe.
We are a new Government from diverse backgrounds without links to
former colonial interests. My own origins are Irish and as you know we
were colonised not colonisers.

We do, however, recognise the very real issues you face over land
reform. We believe that land reform could be an important component of
a Zimbabwean programme designed to eliminate poverty. We would be
prepared to support a programme of land reform that was part of a
poverty eradication strategy but not on any other basis.

I am told Britain provided a package of assistance for resettlement in
the period immediately following independence. This was, I gather,
carefully planned and implemented, and met most of its targets.

Again, I am told there were discussions in 1989 and 1996 to explore
the possibility of further assistance. However that is all in the
past.

If we look to the present, a number of specific issues are unresolved,
including the way in which land would be acquired and compensation
paid - clearly it would not help the poor of Zimbabwe if it was done
in a way which undermined investor confidence.

Other questions that would need to be settled would be to ensure that
the process was completely open and transparent, including the
establishment of a proper land register.

Individual schemes would have to be economically justified to ensure
that the process helped the poor, and for me the most important issue
is that any programme must be planned as part of a programme to
contribute to the goal of eliminating poverty. I would need to
consider detailed proposals on these issues before confirming further
British support for resettlement.

I am sure that a carefully worked out programme of land reform that
was part of a programme of poverty eradication which we could support
would also bring in other donors, whose support would help ensure that
a substantial land resettlement programme such as you clearly desire
could be undertaken successfully. If is [sic] to do so, they too will
need to be involved from the start.

It follows from this that a programme of rapid land acquisition as you
now seem to envisage would be impossible for us to support. I know
that many of Zimbabwe's friends share our concern about the damage
which this might do to Zimbabwe's agricultural output and its
prospects of attracting investment.

I thought it best to be frank about where we are. If you think it
would be helpful, my officials are ready to meet yours to discuss
these issues.

Yours sincerely

Claire Short."

[Saracene]

On Mar 22, 11:02 am, Saracene <***@gmail.com> wrote:


*I should make it clear that we do not accept that Britain has a
special responsibility to meet the costs of land purchase in Zimbabwe.
We are a new Government from diverse backgrounds without links to
former colonial interests. My own origins are Irish and as you know we
were colonised not colonisers. *

Nevertheless she is a good friend of the negro. Didn't she have an
affair with a black burglar?

[Gordon Levi]

Post by Eunometic
Dear Andy, the Politically Correct, left wing half Jewish, half Black,
slightly mentally slow, White hater.

This is the most rational part of your post!

Post by Eunometic
The Bantu, the majority of Blacks, are not native to most of Sth
Africa. They immigrated well after Whites had settled.

You must know that is false and that the "Bantu" occupied most of
South Africa at least 1000 years ago. In case you don't, here's a
summary you can understand
<http://www.south-africa-tours-and-travel.com/bantu.html>.

[B J Foster]

Post by Gordon Levi

Post by Eunometic
Dear Andy, the Politically Correct, left wing half Jewish, half Black,
slightly mentally slow, White hater.

This is the most rational part of your post!

Post by Eunometic
The Bantu, the majority of Blacks, are not native to most of Sth
Africa. They immigrated well after Whites had settled.

You must know that is false and that the "Bantu" occupied most of
South Africa at least 1000 years ago. In case you don't, here's a
summary you can understand
<http://www.south-africa-tours-and-travel.com/bantu.html>.

If your argument is about precedence, you must know that the original
inhabitants of South Africa were Khoi-San (Bushmen) and they were
exterminated by the invading/migrating Bantu. The Dutch in the Cape were
somewhat friendlier, *marrying* the local hottentots and creating the
so-called "coloured" race.

If you choose to ignore the *original* inhabitants, then archaeological
sites in what is now Botswana/North-West predate Dutch settlement but
migration south along the east coast occurred only in the 16th-17th
centuries - finally meeting the north-migrating European settlers in
what was 'Transkei'. No way was this "most of South Africa".

Not that it's relevant anyway. Neither group had a traditional claim to
the land - and both bear the responsibility for exterminating the
original inhabitants.

The Bantu ultimately won the numbers game, thanks to Western medicine.
In 1960, when Mandela was planning to blow up hundreds of thousands of
people to piss them off and cause an uprising, the population was around
17m. In 2001 when the last census was done, it was 49m. It is estimated
that around 40% of people have AIDS and the ANC refuses to do anything
about it. The economy cannot keep up.

And if they keep on murdering white farmers, like Zimbabwe, soon they
will be starving again.

"Similar to Zimbabwe, white farms are being forcibly taken over. The new
owners then eat the best breeding cattle and the seed grain, strip the
irrigation and sell it for scrap...."

[Eunometic]

Post by Gordon Levi

Post by Eunometic
Dear Andy, the Politically Correct, left wing half Jewish, half Black,
slightly mentally slow, White hater.

This is the most rational part of your post!

Post by Eunometic
The Bantu, the majority of Blacks, are not native to most of Sth
Africa.  They immigrated well after Whites had settled.

You must know that is false and that the "Bantu" occupied most of
South Africa at least 1000 years ago. In case you don't, here's a
summary you can understand
<http://www.south-africa-tours-and-travel.com/bantu.html>.

They came down from Cameroon in the 4th century.

There was hardly any in the cape or west coast.

It was the presence of Whites that allowed their numbers to boom.

Whites need a homeland just like Jews do. Jews are antithical to this
for some reason.

[B J Foster]

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".
Which side does he choose in the genocide of white farmers?
http://www.100megspop2.com/crimebusters/FarmVictims.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article7078730.ece
Now underway in South Africa - already completed in Zimbabwe.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7479696.stm

[Steve Hayes]

Suspended sentence for boy’s killer

March 25 2011 at 02:51pm
By Kanina Foss
Copy of ST WarrenVorster238

Bongiwe Mchunu, The Star

Rifle triggers require a slow, gentle squeeze for accuracy. Instead of pulling
a rifle trigger back suddenly, one should gradually add pressure at the same
rate, with the sights correctly aligned, until the rifle fires.

On June 30, 2009, when Warren Vorster grabbed his hunting rifle and aimed it
at the roof of the wooden Zozo house in his backyard, he had a grandmother
begging him to protect her grandchild, his wife and two small children in the
house behind him, and the memory of being tied up and robbed at gunpoint on
the same property during a previous attack.

Not only did the rifle not have sights, but Vorster – with adrenalin coursing
through his veins and the sound of the child screaming in his ears – could not
have pulled the trigger back slowly and gently.

The bullet travelled below the line of the roof, blasted through a window, and
struck 12-year-old Kgopotso Ramolefe in the forehead.

Tragically, Vorster killed the child he was trying to protect – his domestic
worker’s grandson and a boy he considered a member of his family.

On Thursday, almost two years after the incident, Vorster looked ashen as the
Johannesburg High Court convicted him of culpable homicide and handed down a
sentence of three years’ imprisonment, suspended for five years, and 300 hours
of community service spread over a year.

Having misunderstood the sentence, he was led down to the cells to have his
fingerprints taken, thinking he would be spending the next three years in
prison.

But Judge Geraldine Borchers said in her judgment that prison was no place for
a man who had acted in haste and fear to protect a child, against the backdrop
of three previous intrusions onto his property, and who had carried a heavy
burden of guilt since the day of the incident.

She said: “I have never before seen an accused person as devastated and
remorseful as (Vorster) is.”

On June 30, 2009, about four hours before the shooting, Vorster was called
back to his house because an intruder had been in the neighbourhood.

No intruders were found on Vorster’s property that day, and no one will ever
know why Kgopotso started screaming for his grandmother and bolted the door of
the Zozo house from the inside.

Vorster has since been the victim of another attack, in September last year,
during which he and his wife were again tied up and robbed in front of their
children.

He said on Thursday that he was anxious on his property.

“You sit at home every night, outside on the veranda.

“You hear the dogs bark and you’re suddenly alert. You think: ‘Oh my God, are
they back?’.”

The family no longer have any contact with Kgopotso’s grandmother, Elizabeth
Ramolefe. Both Ramolefe and Kgopotso’s mother Florence – who subsequent to
Kgopotso’s death suffer from high blood pressure and other ailments – were
absent for Thursday’s sentencing and could not be reached for comment. - The
Star

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/gauteng/suspended-sentence-for-boy-s-killer-1.1047316

[Steve Hayes]

Child labour crackdown in F State

March 25 2011 at 05:41pm

Independent Newspapers

Labour inspectors in the Free State will inspect farms for under-aged children
who are employed during the school holidays. Photo: Independent Newspapers

Labour inspectors in the Free State will inspect farms for under-aged children
who are employed during the school holidays, the provincial labour department
said on Friday.

“Teams... will also visit farms in the Petrusburg district to do follow ups on
some farms against whom the department had opened cases of child labour after
having been found to have employed children last year to harvest potatoes and
herd cattle,” spokespersonWisane Mavasa said in a statement.

“The children were subsequently removed and placed in the care of their
parents whilst the law takes its course.”

The department had identified a list of farms which labour inspectors would
target, he said.

The Basic Conditions of Employment Act prohibits employers from employing
children under the age of 15 years.

Children above 15-years-old may also not be employed to do work that was
inappropriate for their age or that put them at risk, Mavasa said. -

Sapa

[Steve Hayes]

Post by B J Foster
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice you've chosen the side of
the oppressor".

Cable thief stoned to death

March 24 2011 at 11:48am
By Mandilakhe Tshwete
IOL news mar 24 DV cable thief stoned

DAILY VOICE

A man was stoned to death by enraged residents after he was caught stealing
electricity wires in Phillippi. Photo: Brendan Magaar

A Cape Flats man has been stoned to death after trying to steal electricity
cables.

The man, only identified as Masangweni, was found tethered to a tree in
Brown’s Farm, Philippi, on Wednesday.

Philippi residents spotted him early in the morning trying to cut wires from
the informal settlement’s illegal electricity connections.

Enraged community members caught the startled thief, tied him up and stoned
him to death.

The bloodstained stones could be seen next to Masangweni’s battered body.

A Philippi resident, who wishes to remain anonymous, says Masangweni was a
notorious skollie who had been terrorising the community.

“We had just had a meeting with him about his thug life and he told us he had
changed, but then he was caught stealing,” he says.

“When we had the meeting, we told him someone will kill him. And it turned out
exactly like that, although it happened in another area.”

The man says Masangweni was part of a burglary syndicate.

“They stole fridges from people’s shacks when there was no one at home,” he
says.

“They would hire a cockroach taxi and transport the fridges to another area.

“But we caught them and forced them to show us where they sold the fridges and
other goods.

“They did and we let them go with a warning.”

Police spokesman Captain FC van Wyk says a murder docket is open.

“At about 5am, a body of a man was discovered tied to a tree with multiple
wounds,” he says.

“Nobody has been arrested.” - Daily Voice

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/cable-thief-stoned-to-death-1.1046556

[Steve Hayes]

Otavi Farm Killers Jailed for 35 Years

Werner Menges

28 February 2011

THE two men who killed an elderly woman during a night-time burglary at an
Otavi area farm almost five and a half years ago were sent to prison for an
effective 35 years each on Friday.

A plan to steal money from the house of the 81-year-old Ruth Elfriede Will was
the motive that prompted the burglary and robbery that cost Will her life.
During the break-in, the only money that burglars Jamen Petrus Gaoseb and
Joahasel Gamaseb found in Will's house was N$4,80, though. They used this
money to buy cigarettes, Judge Christie Liebenberg was told during the two
men's trial in the High Court at Oshakati.

Other goods that the two men - both former employees of Will - stole from her
house included a handgun and linen.

The incident took place at farm Gaidaus, situated about 25 kilometres south of
Otavi, during the night of October 15 to 16 2005.

Will was found trussed up on her bed on the morning of October 16 2005. Her
hands and feet had been tied together, and a nightdress had been tied around
her head as well.

She had also been assaulted, it appeared from the results of an autopsy that
was done on her body. During the autopsy it was found that some of Will's ribs
had been broken, while she also had bruises on her face and head.

At the start of their trial, Gaoseb and Gamaseb admitted that they broke into
Will's house in order to steal money from her. They also admitted that they
tied her up, but denied having intended to kill her.

During the trial, Gaoseb told the court that after he and Gamaseb had entered
Will's house through a window that they had broken, he cut the telephone line
in the house. He and Gamaseb then proceeded to Will's bedroom, where they
started their search for money.

By cutting the phone line and tying Will up, they effectively prevented her
from getting help after the assault on her, thereby increasing the risk that
she might die, Judge Liebenberg found in his verdict on Tuesday last week.

He convicted Gaoseb and Gamaseb on counts of murder and housebreaking with
intent to rob and robbery with aggravating circumstances. With the sentencing
on Friday, Judge Liebenberg noted that Will was attacked in the sanctity of
her home.

If they had meant no harm to her, as they claimed, they could have simply
locked her in one of the rooms of the house, he added.

Having been securely trussed up to such an extent that the was probably unable
to move any of her limbs, and with a garment tied tightly around her head,
covering her mouth and nose and probably preventing her from breathing
properly, Will must have been in extreme pain and agony before she died, Judge
Liebenberg remarked.

Will "was helpless and defenceless and had to pay with her life; only so that
the accused persons could rob her of a handgun, N$4,80 in cash, and goods only
of sentimental value to the family i.e. linen," the judge said.
Relevant Links

Gaoseb and Gamaseb are both illiterate and were not able to tell the court
their exact ages. Gaoseb however said he was 21 years old at the time of the
incident, while Gamaseb could only confirm that he is an adult.

The two men were both arrested on the day after the incident, and have
remained in custody over the five years and four months since then.

Judge Liebenberg sentenced each of them to 27 years' imprisonment on the
murder charge and to a 15-year jail term on the housebreaking and robbery
count. Seven years of the latter sentence should be served concurrently with
the sentence on the murder charge, the judge ordered.

The two men were represented by defence lawyer Silas Kishi Shakumu.

http://allafrica.com/stories/201103030724.html

[Steve Hayes]

Life for HIV-positive farm killers
2011-03-12 09:31
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Pretoria – Two men who killed a Brits, North West, farmer were sentenced to
life imprisonment by the Pretoria High Court yesterday, despite being
HIV-positive.

Judge Peter Mabuse said the fact that Thomas Chauke (30), a Mozambican, and
Zondi Nkuna (31) of Soshanguve were both HIV-positive was not a compelling
reason to deviate from the prescribed life sentence.

The two were last year convicted of murdering Brits farmer Brink Botha and
robbing him and his wife Christelle of cellphones, R200 and their bakkie.

Both were also convicted of animal cruelty after poisoning eight of the
couple’s Boerboel dogs. One died at the scene and two had to be hospitalised.

Police shot and killed a third suspect.

The two accused were part of a gang who entered the house by smashing a
bedroom window. When Botha charged at them they shot him in the chest.

One of the robbers grabbed his wife, who had fled to the study, and demanded
money.

She and her daughter were tied up before the robbers left. They found her
husband dead in a pool of blood.

Lawyers for the two argued that their HIV-positive status, the fact that both
supported young children and relatives, and had already spent two-and-a-half
years in jail, should be taken into account as mitigating factors.

Chauke’s advocate Eric Pitso argued his client had expressed remorse.

Patrick Motsitsa, for Nkuna, argued it would be disproportionate to make his
client pay for what he did with the remainder of his life, given his HIV
status. He said Nkuna had seen other HIV sufferers die in jail due to lack of
medical care.

State prosecutor JP Marais argued that Aids was an acquired syndrome and a
lifestyle illness, unless where it was acquired through rape or blood
transfusion.

Marais said the two had sentenced Botha to death without a trial.

He said the court should not allow him to become another statistic in the
horrific number of farm murders committed over the past 17 years.

The Botha family had done everything possible to safeguard themselves, with
electric fencing, lights, dogs and burglar proofing, but their home was
invaded despite these efforts, he said.

If Chauke had had any real remorse, he would not have protested his innocence
so vehemently throughout his trial.

Chauke was sorry for himself, and not for Mrs Botha, who had lost her husband
for no apparent reason, Marais added.

Sentencing the two, Judge Mabuse said Botha was unarmed and defenceless when
he was shot dead.

He could only imagine the pain and helplessness Mrs Botha and her daughter
must have felt on seeing their husband and father dead on the floor.

Speaking to reporters afterwards, Christelle Botha expressed relief her
husband’s killers had finally been sentenced, and that it would help her
achieve closure.

She said she had forgiven the accused within 24 hours after the murder,
because she believed it was the only way to get on with her life.

- SAPA

http://www.citypress.co.za/SouthAfrica/News/Life-for-HIV-positive-farm-killers-20110312

[Steve Hayes]

Farm killers found guilty

STORY: Rachelle Breed

‘Fairness is a double-edged sword which protects not only the rights of the
accused, but also the victims of crime.’ These were the stern words of
Mtubatuba High Court Judge Ntshangase when he convicted three farm murderers
on Friday.

The men were indicted for the brutal attack on Owen Barry Smith and the
slaying of his wife Gwen on their Monzi farm in June 2007. Thulani Nkosinathi
Mthembu (20), Khulekani Lucky Gumede (27) and Mziwakhe Mbuyazi (27) were found
guilty of murder and robbery with aggravating circumstances in what was
described as a resounding victory for justice.

Advocate Dorian Paver for the State relied on statements made by the accused
to the investigating officer. The defence challenged the admissibility of the
evidence on the grounds that the accused’s constitutional rights were
violated. Judge Ntshangase quoted Section 35 (5) of the Constitution,
outlining rights of arrested, detained and accused persons.‘What is clear from
the provisions of section 35 (5) is that any manner that violates a right does
not automatically render such evidence inadmissible.‘That evidence, having
been acquired in a manner that violates the (accused’s) rights, calls into
question whether the submission of such evidence renders the trial unfair or
would bring the administration of justice into disrepute.’

Judge Ntshangase found the accused were not forced to make statements to the
investigating officer and that their statements were made freely and
voluntarily.‘The court is satisfied that Capt Magubane repeatedly advised the
accused of these rights.’ The thorough investigations by Captain Cleophas
Nkosinathi Magubane led to the arrest of the accused. A fourth man, Thulani
Hlophe, eluded arrest but later died in an exchange of gunfire with the
police. Capt Magubane was also injured during the incident.

Advocate Paver also led the evidence of the 78 year-old Smith who testified
how three men invaded the house, held a screwdriver to his neck and demanded
money. He was also tied up and locked inside a bathroom. Gwen Smith died as a
result of a dislocated cervical spine. Judge Ntshangase found the men not
guilty on a third charge of kidnapping. The matter was remanded for sentence.
A minimum sentence must be imposed by the court unless substantial and
compelling circumstances exist in which case a lesser sentence may be imposed.

http://www.zululandobserver.co.za/Pages/m10story1.html

[B J Foster]

Post by B J Foster
He isn't normally so quiet about genocide and injustice.
"He suggested in the 2002 Walter Murdoch lecture that Australia was
deficient in respecting the 'rule of law', when Mugabe had just arrested
and manacled a retired High Court judge who had dared to find a Mugabe
crony guilty of contempt of court. In the same lecture he said: 'We
should not seek to live in a state of denial concerning our past'".

Not everyone has their heads in the sand:
http://www.biblebasedministries.co.uk/2010/04/08/julius-malema-calls-for-the-killing-of-whites/

[B J Foster]

Loading Image...

[Steve Hayes]

Post by B J Foster
http://fromtheold.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/450/12BirthdayMontageNelsonMandelaKillBoer.jpg

http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/PEEVES.HTM

[B J Foster]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B J Foster
http://fromtheold.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/450/12BirthdayMontageNelsonMandelaKillBoer.jpg

Peeved about URL-only messages...

Post by Steve Hayes
http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/PEEVES.HTM

...unconcerned about genocide happening in SA