Discussion:
Tutu calls for wealth tax on whites
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Steve Hayes
2011-08-17 04:50:19 UTC
Permalink
Tutu calls for wealth tax on whites

August 12 2011 at 01:31pm
By MURRAY WILLIAMS
tutu_weathy whites

INDEPENDENT NEWSPAPERS

Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu has called for a “wealth tax” to be imposed
on all white South Africans.

The former archbishop of Cape Town and former head of the Truth and
Reconciliation Commission (TRC) also called on members of President Jacob
Zuma’s cabinet to sell their “expensive cars”, “to show you care” about the
poor in South Africa.

Tutu said apartheid had left South Africans riddled with “self-hate”, and it
was directly to blame for the country’s vicious crime rate and road carnage.

He made the calls on Thursday night during a book launch at Stellenbosch
University’s Institute for Advanced Study.

The book, The Humanist Imperative in South Africa, contains 26 essays by
leading academics and public figures and is edited by Professor John de
Gruchy.

As guest of honour, Tutu recounted the myriad ways apartheid had dehumanised
South Africans.

“Apartheid damaged us all; not a single one of us has escaped.”

In a break from his prepared speech, Tutu said a “wealth tax” had been
suggested during the TRC process, and had enjoyed support at the time.

Moments earlier, he had told the whites in the conference room: “You all
benefited from apartheid. Your children went to fancy schools, you lived in
posh suburbs.”

He stressed, however, that this did not mean all whites had supported
apartheid.

Speaking to the Cape Argus after his speech, Tutu expanded on his wealth tax
call.

“There were many in the white community who were ready for this (at the time
of the TRC process).

“It could be quite piffling, maybe 1 percent of their stock exchange holdings.
It’s nothing. But it could have helped... maybe building new homes, and that
would have been an extraordinary symbol of their readiness.”

Asked whether he was again calling for a “wealth tax”, Tutu said: “That’s what
I’m saying.”

He then laughed: “What were you doing in there (the conference centre)? Were
you listening?”

Tutu did not say how he wished the tax to be implemented, but said he hoped
whites themselves would “agitate” for it to be imposed upon them.

Throughout his speech, Tutu cited numerous examples of what he saw as
apartheid’s impact, which had fundamentally been an “erosion of self-esteem”
and the advent of “self-hate”. He blamed South Africa’s high crime rate on
this, saying: “Thus we must not be surprised at the staggering statistics of
violent crime, murder, rape.

“When you suffer from self-hate you project it on to those who look like you
and so we have so-called black-on-black violence, where the victim of a
hijacking is shot even when she has surrendered her car keys.”

In another example, Tutu said black South Africans continued to litter as a
result of apartheid.

“The disgrace of littering... is not a function of poverty. Our parents were
poor but our surroundings were scrupulously clean because apartheid had not
yet done its pernicious work.”

This “work”, this eventual impact of apartheid’s policies, had left black
South Africans feeling: “I am nothing, I am rubbish and so it does not matter
that I live among all this rubbish which reflects what I think of myself.”

Tutu said another manifestation of the effect of apartheid was the nation’s
road death rate, which was regularly one of the highest in the world.

“We show it how we drive recklessly, inconsiderately, aggressively… because
deep down we are angry and so the appalling carnage on our roads during the
holidays… horrendous statistics we just accept.

“We are wounded.”

Speaking about the cabinet ministers’ cars, Tutu challenged them: “Your
handbook permits you to buy very expensive cars and most of you have done so.
In the spirit of ubuntu, to show that you care, that you are compassionate,
please sell your expensive cars and replace them with slightly less pricey
cars.

“Your humanity depends upon it.”

Tutu said he drove a BMW, which aides described as “a very old three-series”.
- Cape Argus
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com

"She believed in nothing. Only her scepticism kept her from being an atheist."
-- Jean-Paul Sartre
Bob Dubery
2011-08-17 07:25:11 UTC
Permalink
“We show it how we drive recklessly, inconsiderately, aggressively… because
deep down we are angry and so the appalling carnage on our roads during the
holidays… horrendous statistics we just accept.
Really? This kind of stuff always narks me. Some famous person stands
up and starts opining on things in which they have no more expertise
than the man in the street but we're supposed to accept it? Tutu isn't
a pyschologist let alone done any studies into why South Africans
drive so aggressively and discourteously.
Steve Hayes
2011-08-17 08:20:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Steve Hayes
“We show it how we drive recklessly, inconsiderately, aggressively… because
deep down we are angry and so the appalling carnage on our roads during the
holidays… horrendous statistics we just accept.
Really? This kind of stuff always narks me. Some famous person stands
up and starts opining on things in which they have no more expertise
than the man in the street but we're supposed to accept it? Tutu isn't
a pyschologist let alone done any studies into why South Africans
drive so aggressively and discourteously.
When I first moved to Pretoria about 28 years ago I was appalled at how
aggressively and discouteously people drove. If anything, I think that they
drive better now, but that may just be because I have become one of them.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com

"She believed in nothing. Only her scepticism kept her from being an atheist."
-- Jean-Paul Sartre
Bob Dubery
2011-08-17 09:10:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Bob Dubery
We show it how we drive recklessly, inconsiderately, aggressively because
deep down we are angry and so the appalling carnage on our roads during the
holidays horrendous statistics we just accept.
Really? This kind of stuff always narks me. Some famous person stands
up and starts opining on things in which they have no more expertise
than the man in the street but we're supposed to accept it? Tutu isn't
a pyschologist let alone done any studies into why South Africans
drive so aggressively and discourteously.
When I first moved to Pretoria about 28 years ago I was appalled at how
aggressively and discouteously people drove. If anything, I think that they
drive better now, but that may just be because I have become one of them.
Whatever. Tutu is playing erroneous, possibly misleading, games here.

The inclination to litter is caused by apartheid? Well maybe... it's
arguable. But it's perpetuated because it's now just become the way
that people behave. A reparations tax isn't going to change that.

Etc etc etc.

Indeed I'd be interested to hear exactly what Tutu thinks this tax
will achieve. There is poverty in this country and it's terrible, but
it's not happening because of insufficient or inefficient taxation,
and poverty alleviation is not happening because the national and
provicicial governments are
a) primarily concerned with getting re-elected
b) prone to playing the blame game instead of dealing with problems
c) the sort of people who couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery.

Also we have increasingly militant unions who, as is generally the
case with unions, are not interested in upliftment or job creation but
in a better deal for their membership.

Such a tax might assauge the guilt of the short of white people that
Eusebius MacKayser hangs around with, but that's not really going to
achieve anything constructive.
Etienne Marais
2011-08-17 10:21:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Dubery
Indeed I'd be interested to hear exactly what Tutu thinks this tax
will achieve. There is poverty in this country and it's terrible, but
it's not happening because of insufficient or inefficient taxation,
It is due to the legacy of not inventing the wheel nor a system of
writing.
Post by Bob Dubery
and poverty alleviation is not happening because the national and
provicicial governments are
a) primarily concerned with getting re-elected
b) prone to playing the blame game instead of dealing with problems
c) the sort of people who couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery.
Just goes to show that people need complete sovreignty and to be
ruled by their own people according to their own standards, values
and culture.
Post by Bob Dubery
Also we have increasingly militant unions who, as is generally the
case with unions, are not interested in upliftment or job creation but
in a better deal for their membership.
Such a tax might assauge the guilt of the short of white people that
Eusebius MacKayser hangs around with, but that's not really going to
achieve anything constructive.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Bob Dubery
2011-08-17 10:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Indeed I'd be interested to hear exactly what Tutu thinks this tax
will achieve. There is poverty in this country and it's terrible, but
it's not happening because of insufficient or inefficient taxation,
It is due to the legacy of not inventing the wheel nor a system of
writing.
Etienne, jy tokkel op een snaar.
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
and poverty alleviation is not happening because the national and
provicicial governments are
a) primarily concerned with getting re-elected
b) prone to playing the blame game instead of dealing with problems
c) the sort of people who couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery.
Just goes to show that people need complete sovreignty and to be
ruled by their own people according to their own standards, values
and culture.
Really? You think that humanity can be divided up quite nicely and
easily into a finite number of distinct groups each with it's own
culture? I hear these kinds of arguments a lot from people who want a
"boer" homeland. They usually can't give any kind of definition for
"boer" but we know that it's not the same as "white and has afrikaans
as their mother tongue" because they are sure as heck not going to let
Beyers Naude or Carl Niehaus or Karen Zoid in.
Etienne Marais
2011-08-17 10:57:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
will achieve. There is poverty in this country and it's terrible, but
it's not happening because of insufficient or inefficient taxation,
It is due to the legacy of not inventing the wheel nor a system of
writing.
Etienne, jy tokkel op een snaar.
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
and poverty alleviation is not happening because the national and
provicicial governments are
a) primarily concerned with getting re-elected
b) prone to playing the blame game instead of dealing with problems
c) the sort of people who couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery.
Just goes to show that people need complete sovreignty and to be
ruled by their own people according to their own standards, values
and culture.
Really? You think that humanity can be divided up quite nicely and
easily into a finite number of distinct groups each with it's own
culture? I hear these kinds of arguments a lot from people who want a
"boer" homeland. They usually can't give any kind of definition for
"boer" but we know that it's not the same as "white and has afrikaans
as their mother tongue" because they are sure as heck not going to let
Beyers Naude or Carl Niehaus or Karen Zoid in.
What makes you so sure of that ? A sovreign state where Afrikaans is
the one and only official language would do for so many South-Africans.
Bob Dubery
2011-08-17 11:10:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
will achieve. There is poverty in this country and it's terrible, but
it's not happening because of insufficient or inefficient taxation,
It is due to the legacy of not inventing the wheel nor a system of
writing.
Etienne, jy tokkel op een snaar.
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
and poverty alleviation is not happening because the national and
provicicial governments are
a) primarily concerned with getting re-elected
b) prone to playing the blame game instead of dealing with problems
c) the sort of people who couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery.
Just goes to show that people need complete sovreignty and to be
ruled by their own people according to their own standards, values
and culture.
Really? You think that humanity can be divided up quite nicely and
easily into a finite number of distinct groups each with it's own
culture? I hear these kinds of arguments a lot from people who want a
"boer" homeland. They usually can't give any kind of definition for
"boer" but we know that it's not the same as "white and has afrikaans
as their mother tongue" because they are sure as heck not going to let
Beyers Naude or Carl Niehaus or Karen Zoid in.
What makes you so sure of that ?
Talking to them. They're always very keen on a special dispensation
for "the boer" but the problem is they can't tell you who qualifies as
a boer or give any useful definition of a boer nation. They can tell
you who they don't want, but that's not the same thing.
Post by Etienne Marais
A sovreign state where Afrikaans is
the one and only official language would do for so many South-Africans.
What makes you so sure of that?

And what's the attraction of having Afrikaans as the sole official
language? All that it guarantees is that Afrikaans would be the sole
official language.
Etienne Marais
2011-08-17 10:53:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
will achieve. There is poverty in this country and it's terrible, but
it's not happening because of insufficient or inefficient taxation,
It is due to the legacy of not inventing the wheel nor a system of
writing.
Etienne, jy tokkel op een snaar.
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
and poverty alleviation is not happening because the national and
provicicial governments are
a) primarily concerned with getting re-elected
b) prone to playing the blame game instead of dealing with problems
c) the sort of people who couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery.
Just goes to show that people need complete sovreignty and to be
ruled by their own people according to their own standards, values
and culture.
Really? You think that humanity can be divided up quite nicely and
easily into a finite number of distinct groups each with it's own
culture? I hear these kinds of arguments a lot from people who want a
"boer" homeland. They usually can't give any kind of definition for
"boer" but we know that it's not the same as "white and has afrikaans
as their mother tongue" because they are sure as heck not going to let
Beyers Naude or Carl Niehaus or Karen Zoid in.
The world is actually currently divided, and for the better. I can't
just pack
my things and move to any country I wish, and more importantly,
neither
can the masses (from any region) just move into another country and
overrun the current with their own language, culture, identity,
worldview
etc. etc. etc.

Why not just open up England to the world and see what happens, look
at what is currently happening due to lax immigration policies. The
English feel like foreigners in their own country.
Bob Dubery
2011-08-17 13:25:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etienne Marais
The world is actually currently divided, and for the better. I can't
just pack
my things and move to any country I wish, and more importantly,
neither
can the masses (from any region) just move into another country and
overrun the current with their own language, culture, identity,
worldview
etc. etc. etc.
Really? I've noticed all those South Africans playing cricket in
England because of a regulation bought about because a Slovakian
handball player was prevented from playing in the German league.

There are large numbers of foreigners in Spain and Portugal. There are
fish and chip shops in the Algarve! I hope you haven't fainted yet as
I reveal these details of undesirable cultural cross-pollination.

There's a significant number of white people who enjoy music
originally developed by negroes in the southern USA.

I've heard reports about Afrikaans schools in Perth! The bastards! Why
can't they just start talking 'Strine? Why can't they drink four-X and
eat vegemite and 4-and-20 pies like normal people do?

Don't even get me started on people in Viet Nam listening to Santana
records....
Post by Etienne Marais
Why not just open up England to the world and see what happens, look
at what is currently happening due to lax immigration policies. The
English feel like foreigners in their own country.
That's all because of immigration is it? You want to head over there
pronto and get in front of parliament and explain all of this to them
and tell them it's much simpler than they had thought.

They might ask you awkward things like how that explains how a 19-year
old white girl from a good, well off family, who got good marks at
school and is training to be a social worker, got caught with 5000
pounds worth of recently nicked goods in her car, but I'm sure you'll
have some simplistic theory or other.
Etienne Marais
2011-08-17 14:37:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
The world is actually currently divided, and for the better. I can't
just pack
my things and move to any country I wish, and more importantly,
neither
can the masses (from any region) just move into another country and
overrun the current with their own language, culture, identity,
worldview
etc. etc. etc.
Really? I've noticed all those South Africans playing cricket in
England because of a regulation bought about because a Slovakian
handball player was prevented from playing in the German league.
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There are large numbers of foreigners in Spain and Portugal. There are
fish and chip shops in the Algarve! I hope you haven't fainted yet as
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
I reveal these details of undesirable cultural cross-pollination.
Why, to further my argument ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There's a significant number of white people who enjoy music
originally developed by negroes in the southern USA.
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
I've heard reports about Afrikaans schools in Perth! The bastards! Why
can't they just start talking 'Strine? Why can't they drink four-X and
eat vegemite and 4-and-20 pies like normal people do?
And your point is ? Too many of these Afrikaners not adopting to
Australian ways would inevitably lead to friction.
Post by Bob Dubery
Don't even get me started on people in Viet Nam listening to Santana
records....
I won't, because you would not be making any point except that
cultural 'exchange' does happen. My point is that they still have
their
own countries where they are the dominant culture but once you
open the floodgates chaos will follow.
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Why not just open up England to the world and see what happens, look
at what is currently happening due to lax immigration policies. The
English feel like foreigners in their own country.
That's all because of immigration is it? You want to head over there
pronto and get in front of parliament and explain all of this to them
and tell them it's much simpler than they had thought.
Well, they are learning the hard way...
Post by Bob Dubery
They might ask you awkward things like how that explains how a 19-year
old white girl from a good, well off family, who got good marks at
school and is training to be a social worker, got caught with 5000
pounds worth of recently nicked goods in her car, but I'm sure you'll
have some simplistic theory or other.
What the hell is the point you are trying to make ? I did not even
state
that foreigners are to blame for crime, though I do believe that
foreigners
from third world countries are more inclined to it.
Bob Dubery
2011-08-17 15:41:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Really? I've noticed all those South Africans playing cricket in
England because of a regulation bought about because a Slovakian
handball player was prevented from playing in the German league.
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There are large numbers of foreigners in Spain and Portugal. There are
fish and chip shops in the Algarve! I hope you haven't fainted yet as
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
I reveal these details of undesirable cultural cross-pollination.
Why, to further my argument ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There's a significant number of white people who enjoy music
originally developed by negroes in the southern USA.
And your point is ?
That there's been cultural cross-over about as long as there's been
man kind.
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
I've heard reports about Afrikaans schools in Perth! The bastards! Why
can't they just start talking 'Strine? Why can't they drink four-X and
eat vegemite and 4-and-20 pies like normal people do?
And your point is ? Too many of these Afrikaners not adopting to
Australian ways would inevitably lead to friction.
So they should just go there, forget the words to Sarie Marais, stop
plaiting koeksusters and never touch a drop of castle lager ever
again? Should they get rid of their Steve Hofmeyer CDs? What rugby
team should they support? Should they stop speaking Afrikaans. Should
they start exclaiming "'struth" and make references to "bonza
sheilas"?
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Don't even get me started on people in Viet Nam listening to Santana
records....
I won't, because you would not be making any point except that
cultural 'exchange' does happen. My point is that they still have
their
own countries where they are the dominant culture but once you
open the floodgates chaos will follow.
Look at all those kids in Krugersdorp listening to heavy metal that
originates in the USA. Or how about the Zef scene and Afrikaans rap?
But the "floodgates" have been open for a lot longer than that. The
new testament was originally written in Greek. As for the English,
well all that Viking and Norman and Saxon blood....

This is where people who like to talk about "nations" and "peoples"
come unstuck. They start from a fixed position in time, usually fairly
recent. But the boundaries are too vague and too porous, and what we
see as united countries and nationalities now were not always so - you
usually only have to go back a few hundred years to see that.

Look at Spain. You think they're one people? Tell that to the Catalans
around Barcelona area who think that bunch from the south of the
country are barbaric because they go to bull fights. Or tell it to the
Basques...
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Why not just open up England to the world and see what happens, look
at what is currently happening due to lax immigration policies. The
English feel like foreigners in their own country.
That's all because of immigration is it? You want to head over there
pronto and get in front of parliament and explain all of this to them
and tell them it's much simpler than they had thought.
Well, they are learning the hard way...
Post by Bob Dubery
They might ask you awkward things like how that explains how a 19-year
old white girl from a good, well off family, who got good marks at
school and is training to be a social worker, got caught with 5000
pounds worth of recently nicked goods in her car, but I'm sure you'll
have some simplistic theory or other.
What the hell is the point you are trying to make ? I did not even
state
that foreigners are to blame for crime,
Oh? So what was that about " look at what is currently happening due
to lax immigration policies"? Were you talking about the England
batting line up?
Post by Etienne Marais
though I do believe that
foreigners
from third world countries are more inclined to it.
I'm sure you do, Etienne. In fact I'm not the least bit surprised to
hear that.
Etienne Marais
2011-08-17 16:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Really? I've noticed all those South Africans playing cricket in
England because of a regulation bought about because a Slovakian
handball player was prevented from playing in the German league.
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There are large numbers of foreigners in Spain and Portugal. There are
fish and chip shops in the Algarve! I hope you haven't fainted yet as
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
I reveal these details of undesirable cultural cross-pollination.
Why, to further my argument ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There's a significant number of white people who enjoy music
originally developed by negroes in the southern USA.
And your point is ?
That there's been cultural cross-over about as long as there's been
man kind.
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
I've heard reports about Afrikaans schools in Perth! The bastards! Why
can't they just start talking 'Strine? Why can't they drink four-X and
eat vegemite and 4-and-20 pies like normal people do?
And your point is ? Too many of these Afrikaners not adopting to
Australian ways would inevitably lead to friction.
So they should just go there, forget the words to Sarie Marais, stop
plaiting koeksusters and never touch a drop of castle lager ever
again? Should they get rid of their Steve Hofmeyer CDs? What rugby
team should they support? Should they stop speaking Afrikaans. Should
they start exclaiming "'struth" and make references to "bonza
sheilas"?
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Don't even get me started on people in Viet Nam listening to Santana
records....
I won't, because you would not be making any point except that
cultural 'exchange' does happen. My point is that they still have
their
own countries where they are the dominant culture but once you
open the floodgates chaos will follow.
Look at all those kids in Krugersdorp listening to heavy metal that
originates in the USA. Or how about the Zef scene and Afrikaans rap?
But the "floodgates" have been open for a lot longer than that. The
new testament was originally written in Greek. As for the English,
well all that Viking and Norman and Saxon blood....
This is where people who like to talk about "nations" and "peoples"
come unstuck. They start from a fixed position in time, usually fairly
recent. But the boundaries are too vague and too porous, and what we
see as united countries and nationalities now were not always so - you
usually only have to go back a few hundred years to see that.
Look at Spain. You think they're one people? Tell that to the Catalans
around Barcelona area who think that bunch from the south of the
country are barbaric because they go to bull fights. Or tell it to the
Basques...
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Why not just open up England to the world and see what happens, look
at what is currently happening due to lax immigration policies. The
English feel like foreigners in their own country.
That's all because of immigration is it? You want to head over there
pronto and get in front of parliament and explain all of this to them
and tell them it's much simpler than they had thought.
Well, they are learning the hard way...
Post by Bob Dubery
They might ask you awkward things like how that explains how a 19-year
old white girl from a good, well off family, who got good marks at
school and is training to be a social worker, got caught with 5000
pounds worth of recently nicked goods in her car, but I'm sure you'll
have some simplistic theory or other.
What the hell is the point you are trying to make ? I did not even
state
that foreigners are to blame for crime,
Oh? So what was that about " look at what is currently happening due
to lax immigration policies"? Were you talking about the England
batting line up?
Post by Etienne Marais
though I do believe that
foreigners
from third world countries are more inclined to it.
I'm sure you do, Etienne. In fact I'm not the least bit surprised to
hear that.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
So lets look at the flipside, should all borders (which constitute a
type of Apartheid anyway)
be opened unconditionally between countries ? Should Sharia law be
imposed in Britain
if muslims become the dominant factor and outvote the original
inhabitants ? Should the
economic strain be handled from an overwhelming third-world
population ? Should we all
junk English and learn Mandarin as a world language given enough
migration ? Surely you
do not believe we should.

To be fair, I admit nothing is that black-and-white, in fact I take
from Zoroaster's teachings
that the universe is a series of opposites, all about balances and the
like, you are clearly
unbalanced and are trying to impose on my character the other extreme
which is not applicabe
in my case, despite the stereotypical principles you so like to read
into me.

As for you previous statements regarding cultural influx, I believe
that before the industrial
revolution that happened extremely gradually (with the exception of
wars being won where
cultural and other ideas of the dominant group became enforced). Rapid
and overwhelming
change is certainly not healthy.
Bob Dubery
2011-08-18 03:04:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Really? I've noticed all those South Africans playing cricket in
England because of a regulation bought about because a Slovakian
handball player was prevented from playing in the German league.
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There are large numbers of foreigners in Spain and Portugal. There are
fish and chip shops in the Algarve! I hope you haven't fainted yet as
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
I reveal these details of undesirable cultural cross-pollination.
Why, to further my argument ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There's a significant number of white people who enjoy music
originally developed by negroes in the southern USA.
And your point is ?
That there's been cultural cross-over about as long as there's been
man kind.
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
I've heard reports about Afrikaans schools in Perth! The bastards! Why
can't they just start talking 'Strine? Why can't they drink four-X and
eat vegemite and 4-and-20 pies like normal people do?
And your point is ? Too many of these Afrikaners not adopting to
Australian ways would inevitably lead to friction.
So they should just go there, forget the words to Sarie Marais, stop
plaiting koeksusters and never touch a drop of castle lager ever
again? Should they get rid of their Steve Hofmeyer CDs? What rugby
team should they support? Should they stop speaking Afrikaans. Should
they start exclaiming "'struth" and make references to "bonza
sheilas"?
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Don't even get me started on people in Viet Nam listening to Santana
records....
I won't, because you would not be making any point except that
cultural 'exchange' does happen. My point is that they still have
their
own countries where they are the dominant culture but once you
open the floodgates chaos will follow.
Look at all those kids in Krugersdorp listening to heavy metal that
originates in the USA. Or how about the Zef scene and Afrikaans rap?
But the "floodgates" have been open for a lot longer than that. The
new testament was originally written in Greek. As for the English,
well all that Viking and Norman and Saxon blood....
This is where people who like to talk about "nations" and "peoples"
come unstuck. They start from a fixed position in time, usually fairly
recent. But the boundaries are too vague and too porous, and what we
see as united countries and nationalities now were not always so - you
usually only have to go back a few hundred years to see that.
Look at Spain. You think they're one people? Tell that to the Catalans
around Barcelona area who think that bunch from the south of the
country are barbaric because they go to bull fights. Or tell it to the
Basques...
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Why not just open up England to the world and see what happens, look
at what is currently happening due to lax immigration policies. The
English feel like foreigners in their own country.
That's all because of immigration is it? You want to head over there
pronto and get in front of parliament and explain all of this to them
and tell them it's much simpler than they had thought.
Well, they are learning the hard way...
Post by Bob Dubery
They might ask you awkward things like how that explains how a 19-year
old white girl from a good, well off family, who got good marks at
school and is training to be a social worker, got caught with 5000
pounds worth of recently nicked goods in her car, but I'm sure you'll
have some simplistic theory or other.
What the hell is the point you are trying to make ? I did not even
state
that foreigners are to blame for crime,
Oh? So what was that about " look at what is currently happening due
to lax immigration policies"? Were you talking about the England
batting line up?
Post by Etienne Marais
though I do believe that
foreigners
from third world countries are more inclined to it.
I'm sure you do, Etienne. In fact I'm not the least bit surprised to
hear that.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
So lets look at the flipside,
Why don't you answer some questions first? Come on... show your hand.
If you've got one.
<snip evading tactics>
Etienne Marais
2011-08-18 06:35:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Really? I've noticed all those South Africans playing cricket in
England because of a regulation bought about because a Slovakian
handball player was prevented from playing in the German league.
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There are large numbers of foreigners in Spain and Portugal. There are
fish and chip shops in the Algarve! I hope you haven't fainted yet as
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
I reveal these details of undesirable cultural cross-pollination.
Why, to further my argument ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There's a significant number of white people who enjoy music
originally developed by negroes in the southern USA.
And your point is ?
That there's been cultural cross-over about as long as there's been
man kind.
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
I've heard reports about Afrikaans schools in Perth! The bastards! Why
can't they just start talking 'Strine? Why can't they drink four-X and
eat vegemite and 4-and-20 pies like normal people do?
And your point is ? Too many of these Afrikaners not adopting to
Australian ways would inevitably lead to friction.
So they should just go there, forget the words to Sarie Marais, stop
plaiting koeksusters and never touch a drop of castle lager ever
again? Should they get rid of their Steve Hofmeyer CDs? What rugby
team should they support? Should they stop speaking Afrikaans. Should
they start exclaiming "'struth" and make references to "bonza
sheilas"?
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Don't even get me started on people in Viet Nam listening to Santana
records....
I won't, because you would not be making any point except that
cultural 'exchange' does happen. My point is that they still have
their
own countries where they are the dominant culture but once you
open the floodgates chaos will follow.
Look at all those kids in Krugersdorp listening to heavy metal that
originates in the USA. Or how about the Zef scene and Afrikaans rap?
But the "floodgates" have been open for a lot longer than that. The
new testament was originally written in Greek. As for the English,
well all that Viking and Norman and Saxon blood....
This is where people who like to talk about "nations" and "peoples"
come unstuck. They start from a fixed position in time, usually fairly
recent. But the boundaries are too vague and too porous, and what we
see as united countries and nationalities now were not always so - you
usually only have to go back a few hundred years to see that.
Look at Spain. You think they're one people? Tell that to the Catalans
around Barcelona area who think that bunch from the south of the
country are barbaric because they go to bull fights. Or tell it to the
Basques...
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Why not just open up England to the world and see what happens, look
at what is currently happening due to lax immigration policies. The
English feel like foreigners in their own country.
That's all because of immigration is it? You want to head over there
pronto and get in front of parliament and explain all of this to them
and tell them it's much simpler than they had thought.
Well, they are learning the hard way...
Post by Bob Dubery
They might ask you awkward things like how that explains how a 19-year
old white girl from a good, well off family, who got good marks at
school and is training to be a social worker, got caught with 5000
pounds worth of recently nicked goods in her car, but I'm sure you'll
have some simplistic theory or other.
What the hell is the point you are trying to make ? I did not even
state
that foreigners are to blame for crime,
Oh? So what was that about " look at what is currently happening due
to lax immigration policies"? Were you talking about the England
batting line up?
Post by Etienne Marais
though I do believe that
foreigners
from third world countries are more inclined to it.
I'm sure you do, Etienne. In fact I'm not the least bit surprised to
hear that.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
So lets look at the flipside,
Why don't you answer some questions first? Come on... show your hand.
If you've got one.
<snip evading tactics>- Hide quoted text -
Typical, evading my response and then accusing me of evasion.
Bob Dubery
2011-08-18 07:38:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Really? I've noticed all those South Africans playing cricket in
England because of a regulation bought about because a Slovakian
handball player was prevented from playing in the German league.
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There are large numbers of foreigners in Spain and Portugal. There are
fish and chip shops in the Algarve! I hope you haven't fainted yet as
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
I reveal these details of undesirable cultural cross-pollination.
Why, to further my argument ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There's a significant number of white people who enjoy music
originally developed by negroes in the southern USA.
And your point is ?
That there's been cultural cross-over about as long as there's been
man kind.
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
I've heard reports about Afrikaans schools in Perth! The bastards! Why
can't they just start talking 'Strine? Why can't they drink four-X and
eat vegemite and 4-and-20 pies like normal people do?
And your point is ? Too many of these Afrikaners not adopting to
Australian ways would inevitably lead to friction.
So they should just go there, forget the words to Sarie Marais, stop
plaiting koeksusters and never touch a drop of castle lager ever
again? Should they get rid of their Steve Hofmeyer CDs? What rugby
team should they support? Should they stop speaking Afrikaans. Should
they start exclaiming "'struth" and make references to "bonza
sheilas"?
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Don't even get me started on people in Viet Nam listening to Santana
records....
I won't, because you would not be making any point except that
cultural 'exchange' does happen. My point is that they still have
their
own countries where they are the dominant culture but once you
open the floodgates chaos will follow.
Look at all those kids in Krugersdorp listening to heavy metal that
originates in the USA. Or how about the Zef scene and Afrikaans rap?
But the "floodgates" have been open for a lot longer than that. The
new testament was originally written in Greek. As for the English,
well all that Viking and Norman and Saxon blood....
This is where people who like to talk about "nations" and "peoples"
come unstuck. They start from a fixed position in time, usually fairly
recent. But the boundaries are too vague and too porous, and what we
see as united countries and nationalities now were not always so - you
usually only have to go back a few hundred years to see that.
Look at Spain. You think they're one people? Tell that to the Catalans
around Barcelona area who think that bunch from the south of the
country are barbaric because they go to bull fights. Or tell it to the
Basques...
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Why not just open up England to the world and see what happens, look
at what is currently happening due to lax immigration policies. The
English feel like foreigners in their own country.
That's all because of immigration is it? You want to head over there
pronto and get in front of parliament and explain all of this to them
and tell them it's much simpler than they had thought.
Well, they are learning the hard way...
Post by Bob Dubery
They might ask you awkward things like how that explains how a 19-year
old white girl from a good, well off family, who got good marks at
school and is training to be a social worker, got caught with 5000
pounds worth of recently nicked goods in her car, but I'm sure you'll
have some simplistic theory or other.
What the hell is the point you are trying to make ? I did not even
state
that foreigners are to blame for crime,
Oh? So what was that about " look at what is currently happening due
to lax immigration policies"? Were you talking about the England
batting line up?
Post by Etienne Marais
though I do believe that
foreigners
from third world countries are more inclined to it.
I'm sure you do, Etienne. In fact I'm not the least bit surprised to
hear that.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
So lets look at the flipside,
Why don't you answer some questions first? Come on... show your hand.
If you've got one.
<snip evading tactics>- Hide quoted text -
Typical, evading my response and then accusing me of evasion.
No. I'm just taking my rightful place in the queue. You go and then I
go and so on....
Etienne Marais
2011-08-18 09:01:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Really? I've noticed all those South Africans playing cricket in
England because of a regulation bought about because a Slovakian
handball player was prevented from playing in the German league.
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There are large numbers of foreigners in Spain and Portugal. There are
fish and chip shops in the Algarve! I hope you haven't fainted yet as
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
I reveal these details of undesirable cultural cross-pollination.
Why, to further my argument ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There's a significant number of white people who enjoy music
originally developed by negroes in the southern USA.
And your point is ?
That there's been cultural cross-over about as long as there's been
man kind.
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
I've heard reports about Afrikaans schools in Perth! The bastards! Why
can't they just start talking 'Strine? Why can't they drink four-X and
eat vegemite and 4-and-20 pies like normal people do?
And your point is ? Too many of these Afrikaners not adopting to
Australian ways would inevitably lead to friction.
So they should just go there, forget the words to Sarie Marais, stop
plaiting koeksusters and never touch a drop of castle lager ever
again? Should they get rid of their Steve Hofmeyer CDs? What rugby
team should they support? Should they stop speaking Afrikaans. Should
they start exclaiming "'struth" and make references to "bonza
sheilas"?
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Don't even get me started on people in Viet Nam listening to Santana
records....
I won't, because you would not be making any point except that
cultural 'exchange' does happen. My point is that they still have
their
own countries where they are the dominant culture but once you
open the floodgates chaos will follow.
Look at all those kids in Krugersdorp listening to heavy metal that
originates in the USA. Or how about the Zef scene and Afrikaans rap?
But the "floodgates" have been open for a lot longer than that. The
new testament was originally written in Greek. As for the English,
well all that Viking and Norman and Saxon blood....
This is where people who like to talk about "nations" and "peoples"
come unstuck. They start from a fixed position in time, usually fairly
recent. But the boundaries are too vague and too porous, and what we
see as united countries and nationalities now were not always so - you
usually only have to go back a few hundred years to see that.
Look at Spain. You think they're one people? Tell that to the Catalans
around Barcelona area who think that bunch from the south of the
country are barbaric because they go to bull fights. Or tell it to the
Basques...
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Why not just open up England to the world and see what happens, look
at what is currently happening due to lax immigration policies. The
English feel like foreigners in their own country.
That's all because of immigration is it? You want to head over there
pronto and get in front of parliament and explain all of this to them
and tell them it's much simpler than they had thought.
Well, they are learning the hard way...
Post by Bob Dubery
They might ask you awkward things like how that explains how a 19-year
old white girl from a good, well off family, who got good marks at
school and is training to be a social worker, got caught with 5000
pounds worth of recently nicked goods in her car, but I'm sure you'll
have some simplistic theory or other.
What the hell is the point you are trying to make ? I did not even
state
that foreigners are to blame for crime,
Oh? So what was that about " look at what is currently happening due
to lax immigration policies"? Were you talking about the England
batting line up?
Post by Etienne Marais
though I do believe that
foreigners
from third world countries are more inclined to it.
I'm sure you do, Etienne. In fact I'm not the least bit surprised to
hear that.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
So lets look at the flipside,
Why don't you answer some questions first? Come on... show your hand.
If you've got one.
<snip evading tactics>- Hide quoted text -
Typical, evading my response and then accusing me of evasion.
No. I'm just taking my rightful place in the queue. You go and then I
go and so on....- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Ok, regarding cultural interchange and influx of foreigners, what is
your question ?
Bob Dubery
2011-08-18 09:25:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Really? I've noticed all those South Africans playing cricket in
England because of a regulation bought about because a Slovakian
handball player was prevented from playing in the German league.
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There are large numbers of foreigners in Spain and Portugal. There are
fish and chip shops in the Algarve! I hope you haven't fainted yet as
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
I reveal these details of undesirable cultural cross-pollination.
Why, to further my argument ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There's a significant number of white people who enjoy music
originally developed by negroes in the southern USA.
And your point is ?
That there's been cultural cross-over about as long as there's been
man kind.
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
I've heard reports about Afrikaans schools in Perth! The bastards! Why
can't they just start talking 'Strine? Why can't they drink four-X and
eat vegemite and 4-and-20 pies like normal people do?
And your point is ? Too many of these Afrikaners not adopting to
Australian ways would inevitably lead to friction.
So they should just go there, forget the words to Sarie Marais, stop
plaiting koeksusters and never touch a drop of castle lager ever
again? Should they get rid of their Steve Hofmeyer CDs? What rugby
team should they support? Should they stop speaking Afrikaans. Should
they start exclaiming "'struth" and make references to "bonza
sheilas"?
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Don't even get me started on people in Viet Nam listening to Santana
records....
I won't, because you would not be making any point except that
cultural 'exchange' does happen. My point is that they still have
their
own countries where they are the dominant culture but once you
open the floodgates chaos will follow.
Look at all those kids in Krugersdorp listening to heavy metal that
originates in the USA. Or how about the Zef scene and Afrikaans rap?
But the "floodgates" have been open for a lot longer than that. The
new testament was originally written in Greek. As for the English,
well all that Viking and Norman and Saxon blood....
This is where people who like to talk about "nations" and "peoples"
come unstuck. They start from a fixed position in time, usually fairly
recent. But the boundaries are too vague and too porous, and what we
see as united countries and nationalities now were not always so - you
usually only have to go back a few hundred years to see that.
Look at Spain. You think they're one people? Tell that to the Catalans
around Barcelona area who think that bunch from the south of the
country are barbaric because they go to bull fights. Or tell it to the
Basques...
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Why not just open up England to the world and see what happens, look
at what is currently happening due to lax immigration policies. The
English feel like foreigners in their own country.
That's all because of immigration is it? You want to head over there
pronto and get in front of parliament and explain all of this to them
and tell them it's much simpler than they had thought.
Well, they are learning the hard way...
Post by Bob Dubery
They might ask you awkward things like how that explains how a 19-year
old white girl from a good, well off family, who got good marks at
school and is training to be a social worker, got caught with 5000
pounds worth of recently nicked goods in her car, but I'm sure you'll
have some simplistic theory or other.
What the hell is the point you are trying to make ? I did not even
state
that foreigners are to blame for crime,
Oh? So what was that about " look at what is currently happening due
to lax immigration policies"? Were you talking about the England
batting line up?
Post by Etienne Marais
though I do believe that
foreigners
from third world countries are more inclined to it.
I'm sure you do, Etienne. In fact I'm not the least bit surprised to
hear that.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
So lets look at the flipside,
Why don't you answer some questions first? Come on... show your hand.
If you've got one.
<snip evading tactics>- Hide quoted text -
Typical, evading my response and then accusing me of evasion.
No. I'm just taking my rightful place in the queue. You go and then I
go and so on....- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Ok, regarding cultural interchange and influx of foreigners, what is
your question ?
Get off your lazy arse and go and read the thread.
Etienne Marais
2011-08-18 09:43:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Really? I've noticed all those South Africans playing cricket in
England because of a regulation bought about because a Slovakian
handball player was prevented from playing in the German league.
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There are large numbers of foreigners in Spain and Portugal. There are
fish and chip shops in the Algarve! I hope you haven't fainted yet as
And your point is ?
Post by Bob Dubery
I reveal these details of undesirable cultural cross-pollination.
Why, to further my argument ?
Post by Bob Dubery
There's a significant number of white people who enjoy music
originally developed by negroes in the southern USA.
And your point is ?
That there's been cultural cross-over about as long as there's been
man kind.
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
I've heard reports about Afrikaans schools in Perth! The bastards! Why
can't they just start talking 'Strine? Why can't they drink four-X and
eat vegemite and 4-and-20 pies like normal people do?
And your point is ? Too many of these Afrikaners not adopting to
Australian ways would inevitably lead to friction.
So they should just go there, forget the words to Sarie Marais, stop
plaiting koeksusters and never touch a drop of castle lager ever
again? Should they get rid of their Steve Hofmeyer CDs? What rugby
team should they support? Should they stop speaking Afrikaans. Should
they start exclaiming "'struth" and make references to "bonza
sheilas"?
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Don't even get me started on people in Viet Nam listening to Santana
records....
I won't, because you would not be making any point except that
cultural 'exchange' does happen. My point is that they still have
their
own countries where they are the dominant culture but once you
open the floodgates chaos will follow.
Look at all those kids in Krugersdorp listening to heavy metal that
originates in the USA. Or how about the Zef scene and Afrikaans rap?
But the "floodgates" have been open for a lot longer than that. The
new testament was originally written in Greek. As for the English,
well all that Viking and Norman and Saxon blood....
This is where people who like to talk about "nations" and "peoples"
come unstuck. They start from a fixed position in time, usually fairly
recent. But the boundaries are too vague and too porous, and what we
see as united countries and nationalities now were not always so - you
usually only have to go back a few hundred years to see that.
Look at Spain. You think they're one people? Tell that to the Catalans
around Barcelona area who think that bunch from the south of the
country are barbaric because they go to bull fights. Or tell it to the
Basques...
Post by Etienne Marais
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
Why not just open up England to the world and see what happens, look
at what is currently happening due to lax immigration policies. The
English feel like foreigners in their own country.
That's all because of immigration is it? You want to head over there
pronto and get in front of parliament and explain all of this to them
and tell them it's much simpler than they had thought.
Well, they are learning the hard way...
Post by Bob Dubery
They might ask you awkward things like how that explains how a 19-year
old white girl from a good, well off family, who got good marks at
school and is training to be a social worker, got caught with 5000
pounds worth of recently nicked goods in her car, but I'm sure you'll
have some simplistic theory or other.
What the hell is the point you are trying to make ? I did not even
state
that foreigners are to blame for crime,
Oh? So what was that about " look at what is currently happening due
to lax immigration policies"? Were you talking about the England
batting line up?
Post by Etienne Marais
though I do believe that
foreigners
from third world countries are more inclined to it.
I'm sure you do, Etienne. In fact I'm not the least bit surprised to
hear that.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
So lets look at the flipside,
Why don't you answer some questions first? Come on... show your hand.
If you've got one.
<snip evading tactics>- Hide quoted text -
Typical, evading my response and then accusing me of evasion.
No. I'm just taking my rightful place in the queue. You go and then I
go and so on....- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Ok, regarding cultural interchange and influx of foreigners, what is
your question ?
Get off your lazy arse and go and read the thread
Since you are avoiding my previous response to the thread (where I
mention the flipside)
I will try to answer the question with a shorter response: "That's
all because of immigration is it?"

My answer is: mostly yes. I believe that the English have a strong
identity which developed
over many centuries and should be protected. Some immigrants, but not
most, are adapting
to an English/British cultural system. I believe most are however just
importing their own
ideas and building on that.
Bob Dubery
2011-08-18 14:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etienne Marais
My answer is: mostly yes. I believe that the English have a strong
identity which developed
over many centuries and should be protected. Some immigrants, but not
most, are adapting
to an English/British cultural system. I believe most are however just
importing their own
ideas and building on that.
Perhaps. But there's a significant number of "protesters" (I'd rather
call them "rioters" or "varmints" or just plain "thieves") who are not
immigrants or even children of immigrants. Blaming this on immigrants
or "culture" doesn't stick. It's more complex than that. Or
frighteningly simple - people don't have a moral compass any more.

May I take it that you would not condone Afrikaners moving to
Australia and not integrating with Australian society?
Etienne Marais
2011-08-20 16:52:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Etienne Marais
My answer is: mostly yes. I believe that the English have a strong
identity which developed
over many centuries and should be protected. Some immigrants, but not
most, are adapting
to an English/British cultural system. I believe most are however just
importing their own
ideas and building on that.
Perhaps. But there's a significant number of "protesters" (I'd rather
call them "rioters" or "varmints" or just plain "thieves") who are not
immigrants or even children of immigrants. Blaming this on immigrants
or "culture" doesn't stick. It's more complex than that. Or
frighteningly simple - people don't have a moral compass any more.
May I take it that you would not condone Afrikaners moving to
Australia and not integrating with Australian society?
Most certainly.

Steve Hayes
2011-08-18 03:34:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Bob Dubery
We show it how we drive recklessly, inconsiderately, aggressively because
deep down we are angry and so the appalling carnage on our roads during the
holidays horrendous statistics we just accept.
Really? This kind of stuff always narks me. Some famous person stands
up and starts opining on things in which they have no more expertise
than the man in the street but we're supposed to accept it? Tutu isn't
a pyschologist let alone done any studies into why South Africans
drive so aggressively and discourteously.
When I first moved to Pretoria about 28 years ago I was appalled at how
aggressively and discouteously people drove. If anything, I think that they
drive better now, but that may just be because I have become one of them.
Whatever. Tutu is playing erroneous, possibly misleading, games here.
The inclination to litter is caused by apartheid? Well maybe... it's
arguable. But it's perpetuated because it's now just become the way
that people behave. A reparations tax isn't going to change that.
Etc etc etc.
Indeed I'd be interested to hear exactly what Tutu thinks this tax
will achieve. There is poverty in this country and it's terrible, but
it's not happening because of insufficient or inefficient taxation,
and poverty alleviation is not happening because the national and
provicicial governments are
a) primarily concerned with getting re-elected
b) prone to playing the blame game instead of dealing with problems
c) the sort of people who couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery.
I's be inrerested in seeing a transcript of what he actually said. The report
was rather disjointed, and so it maide little sense to me.

There is already a wealth tax, in the form of graduated income tax.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com

"She believed in nothing. Only her scepticism kept her from being an atheist."
-- Jean-Paul Sartre
Etienne Marais
2011-08-17 07:43:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Tutu calls for wealth tax on whites
August 12 2011 at 01:31pm
By MURRAY WILLIAMS
tutu_weathy whites
INDEPENDENT NEWSPAPERS
Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu has called for a “wealth tax” to be imposed
on all white South Africans.
Even on bleeding-heart anglo liberals ? Shame
Post by Steve Hayes
The former archbishop of Cape Town and former head of the Truth and
Reconciliation Commission (TRC) also called on members of President Jacob
Zuma’s cabinet to sell their “expensive cars”, “to show you care” about the
poor in South Africa.
Not forgetting Malema, the ANC's expensive parties, luxurious travel
and accomodation
expenses etc. etc.
Post by Steve Hayes
Tutu said apartheid had left South Africans riddled with “self-hate”, and it
Why, because they realized that they can do nothing for themselves and
had
to rely on the Apartheid system for free schools, the largest hospital
in the
southern hemisphere, infrastructure and western medical care.
Post by Steve Hayes
was directly to blame for the country’s vicious crime rate and road carnage.
Bullshit,
Post by Steve Hayes
He made the calls on Thursday night during a book launch at Stellenbosch
University’s Institute for Advanced Study.
The book, The Humanist Imperative in South Africa, contains 26 essays by
leading academics and public figures and is edited by Professor John de
Gruchy.
Looney psychos.
Post by Steve Hayes
As guest of honour, Tutu recounted the myriad ways apartheid had dehumanised
South Africans.
Apartheid lifted people up
Post by Steve Hayes
“Apartheid damaged us all; not a single one of us has escaped.”
Yes, I still feel the psycholigical damage of living in clean, save
areas.
Post by Steve Hayes
In a break from his prepared speech, Tutu said a “wealth tax” had been
suggested during the TRC process, and had enjoyed support at the time.
A wealth tax should be imposed on blacks benefiting at the cost of
whites.
Post by Steve Hayes
Moments earlier, he had told the whites in the conference room: “You all
benefited from apartheid. Your children went to fancy schools, you lived in
posh suburbs.”
Most lived in middle-class areas and went to decent, not fancy,
schools.
In African terms that is unatainably high standards though.
Post by Steve Hayes
He stressed, however, that this did not mean all whites had supported
apartheid.
Yes, many supported the terrorist and communist ANC.
Post by Steve Hayes
Speaking to the Cape Argus after his speech, Tutu expanded on his wealth tax
call.
“There were many in the white community who were ready for this (at the time
of the TRC process).
I bet some liberals on this group are still of like mind.
Post by Steve Hayes
“It could be quite piffling, maybe 1 percent of their stock exchange holdings.
It’s nothing. But it could have helped... maybe building new homes, and that
would have been an extraordinary symbol of their readiness.”
Or just squandering as the ANC is good at.
Post by Steve Hayes
Asked whether he was again calling for a “wealth tax”, Tutu said: “That’s what
I’m saying.”
He then laughed: “What were you doing in there (the conference centre)? Were
you listening?”
Tutu did not say how he wished the tax to be implemented, but said he hoped
whites themselves would “agitate” for it to be imposed upon them.
Please, please impose on us more self-hatred and guilt, we have a
guilt fetish
around here.
Post by Steve Hayes
Throughout his speech, Tutu cited numerous examples of what he saw as
apartheid’s impact, which had fundamentally been an “erosion of self-esteem”
and the advent of “self-hate”. He blamed South Africa’s high crime rate on
this, saying: “Thus we must not be surprised at the staggering statistics of
violent crime, murder, rape.
Not surprising at all, it is the African way.
Post by Steve Hayes
“When you suffer from self-hate you project it on to those who look like you
and so we have so-called black-on-black violence, where the victim of a
hijacking is shot even when she has surrendered her car keys.”
When you are a primitive savage you do the same
Post by Steve Hayes
In another example, Tutu said black South Africans continued to litter as a
result of apartheid.
What utter bullshit
Post by Steve Hayes
“The disgrace of littering... is not a function of poverty. Our parents were
poor but our surroundings were scrupulously clean because apartheid had not
yet done its pernicious work.”
Bullshit, so suddenly squatter camps are full of litter because
Apartheid ended
or what ???
Post by Steve Hayes
This “work”, this eventual impact of apartheid’s policies, had left black
South Africans feeling: “I am nothing, I am rubbish and so it does not matter
that I live among all this rubbish which reflects what I think of myself.”
Low self-esteem huh, surely Bob could write us a good explanation of
how
Africa never got industrialized before western influence, and how they
could
discard natural products in the natural environment without flinching.
Post by Steve Hayes
Tutu said another manifestation of the effect of apartheid was the nation’s
road death rate, which was regularly one of the highest in the world.
How bizarre
Post by Steve Hayes
“We show it how we drive recklessly, inconsiderately, aggressively… because
deep down we are angry and so the appalling carnage on our roads during the
holidays… horrendous statistics we just accept.
We just accept a lot more savagery than should even be imagined.
Post by Steve Hayes
“We are wounded.”
Ahhh, shame, the ever lasting victimhood.
Post by Steve Hayes
Speaking about the cabinet ministers’ cars, Tutu challenged them: “Your
handbook permits you to buy very expensive cars and most of you have done so.
In the spirit of ubuntu, to show that you care, that you are compassionate,
please sell your expensive cars and replace them with slightly less pricey
cars.
Slightly less ? How about a lot less ?
Post by Steve Hayes
“Your humanity depends upon it.”
Tutu said he drove a BMW, which aides described as “a very old three-series”.
- Cape Argus
Shame, how unfortunate.
Post by Steve Hayes
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://khanya.wordpress.com
Blog:http://methodius.blogspot.com
"She believed in nothing. Only her scepticism kept her from being an atheist."
-- Jean-Paul Sartre
Bob Dubery
2011-08-18 14:12:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Tutu calls for wealth tax on whites
But did he?

I'm now hearing from people who closer to the action that he didn't
call for a tax but suggested a voluntary payment. He DID apparently
say that the idea had been mooted during the TRC and that he supported
it then.

Anybody seen a transcript?
Bob Dubery
2011-08-18 14:21:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Steve Hayes
Tutu calls for wealth tax on whites
But did he?
I'm now hearing from people who closer to the action that he didn't
call for a tax but suggested a voluntary payment. He DID apparently
say that the idea had been mooted during the TRC and that he supported
it then.
Anybody seen a transcript?
HEre's a video recording - 22 minutes of it
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71656?oid=250738&sn=Detail&pid=71656
Steve Hayes
2011-08-18 16:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Dubery
Post by Steve Hayes
Tutu calls for wealth tax on whites
But did he?
I'm now hearing from people who closer to the action that he didn't
call for a tax but suggested a voluntary payment. He DID apparently
say that the idea had been mooted during the TRC and that he supported
it then.
Anybody seen a transcript?
Quite.

The report waqs confused and confusibng, a bunch of sound bits strung together
in higglty-piggelty fashion so that one really has no idea what was said.

I too would be interested in seeing a transcript.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com

"She believed in nothing. Only her scepticism kept her from being an atheist."
-- Jean-Paul Sartre
SFD
2011-08-19 10:29:32 UTC
Permalink
Have the whites still got a few bob left then?
I thought they'd already relieved the whites of everything by now - legacy
of the past etc. etc. etc.....
I'll bet of Tuts is not short of a penny - passed the collection hat around
alright!
Post by Steve Hayes
Tutu calls for wealth tax on whites
August 12 2011 at 01:31pm
By MURRAY WILLIAMS
tutu_weathy whites
INDEPENDENT NEWSPAPERS
Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu has called for a "wealth tax" to be
imposed
on all white South Africans.
The former archbishop of Cape Town and former head of the Truth and
Reconciliation Commission (TRC) also called on members of President Jacob
Zuma's cabinet to sell their "expensive cars", "to show you care" about
the
poor in South Africa.
Tutu said apartheid had left South Africans riddled with "self-hate", and
it
was directly to blame for the country's vicious crime rate and road
carnage.
He made the calls on Thursday night during a book launch at Stellenbosch
University's Institute for Advanced Study.
The book, The Humanist Imperative in South Africa, contains 26 essays by
leading academics and public figures and is edited by Professor John de
Gruchy.
As guest of honour, Tutu recounted the myriad ways apartheid had dehumanised
South Africans.
"Apartheid damaged us all; not a single one of us has escaped."
In a break from his prepared speech, Tutu said a "wealth tax" had been
suggested during the TRC process, and had enjoyed support at the time.
Moments earlier, he had told the whites in the conference room: "You all
benefited from apartheid. Your children went to fancy schools, you lived in
posh suburbs."
He stressed, however, that this did not mean all whites had supported
apartheid.
Speaking to the Cape Argus after his speech, Tutu expanded on his wealth tax
call.
"There were many in the white community who were ready for this (at the
time
of the TRC process).
"It could be quite piffling, maybe 1 percent of their stock exchange
holdings.
It's nothing. But it could have helped... maybe building new homes, and
that
would have been an extraordinary symbol of their readiness."
Asked whether he was again calling for a "wealth tax", Tutu said: "That's
what
I'm saying."
He then laughed: "What were you doing in there (the conference centre)?
Were
you listening?"
Tutu did not say how he wished the tax to be implemented, but said he hoped
whites themselves would "agitate" for it to be imposed upon them.
Throughout his speech, Tutu cited numerous examples of what he saw as
apartheid's impact, which had fundamentally been an "erosion of
self-esteem"
and the advent of "self-hate". He blamed South Africa's high crime rate on
this, saying: "Thus we must not be surprised at the staggering statistics
of
violent crime, murder, rape.
"When you suffer from self-hate you project it on to those who look like
you
and so we have so-called black-on-black violence, where the victim of a
hijacking is shot even when she has surrendered her car keys."
In another example, Tutu said black South Africans continued to litter as a
result of apartheid.
"The disgrace of littering... is not a function of poverty. Our parents
were
poor but our surroundings were scrupulously clean because apartheid had not
yet done its pernicious work."
This "work", this eventual impact of apartheid's policies, had left black
South Africans feeling: "I am nothing, I am rubbish and so it does not
matter
that I live among all this rubbish which reflects what I think of myself."
Tutu said another manifestation of the effect of apartheid was the
nation's
road death rate, which was regularly one of the highest in the world.
"We show it how we drive recklessly, inconsiderately, aggressively.
because
deep down we are angry and so the appalling carnage on our roads during the
holidays. horrendous statistics we just accept.
"We are wounded."
Speaking about the cabinet ministers' cars, Tutu challenged them: "Your
handbook permits you to buy very expensive cars and most of you have done so.
In the spirit of ubuntu, to show that you care, that you are
compassionate,
please sell your expensive cars and replace them with slightly less pricey
cars.
"Your humanity depends upon it."
Tutu said he drove a BMW, which aides described as "a very old
three-series".
- Cape Argus
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
"She believed in nothing. Only her scepticism kept her from being an atheist."
-- Jean-Paul Sartre
Etienne Marais
2011-08-19 12:23:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by SFD
Have the whites still got a few bob left then?
I thought they'd already relieved the whites of everything by now -  legacy
of the past etc. etc. etc.....
The gap between rich and poor is growing, among all races. There are
some
very rich white people but there are many whites in squatter camps as
well.
Post by SFD
I'll bet of Tuts is not short of a penny
Probably. But if he is anything like Malema then he considers himself
poor.
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